Originally Posted by Redneck

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what you're getting at there. Are you suggesting that in the present day some foreign power should try to assist the South in restarting the Civil War? If so, I'm sorry, but that is ludicrous, if only because I highly doubt any large body of men could be found/organized in the Southern states who truly wanted to rebel again, as much as we may make jokes about yankees and redneck southerners, we're a pretty solidly unified country.

No, I just applied the present US ways of dealing with the Taiwan’ problem to US itself. The US ways are ludicrous.

Originally Posted by Big_Z

I think i see what hes saying. Hes comparing China as north and tiawon as south. As saying The Brits coming and helping the south Confederates beat the north. like America aiding tiawon.

You are very very very intelligent!!! Thanks

devmim - You have to understand we think differently. We feel everyman should be free. No matter what the cost. Its burned into us from the day we are born. If Taiwan wants to be free then we see them that way. Like Israel i guess you could say. Its hard for us to understand your way of thinking as its hard for you to see ours. And by the way that war was over slaves and racism, The North was fighting for free rights for all and the south wanted their slaves to pick the cottin.

Originally Posted by Big_Z

devmim - You have to understand we think differently. We feel everyman should be free. Nomatter what the cost. Its burned into us from the day we are born. If tiawon wants to be free then we see them that way. Like Israel i guesse you could say. Its hard for us to understand your way of thinking as its hard for you to see ours.

I have no doubt for your saying that its burned into you from the day you are born, which is also true of Chinese including Taiwanese. However, there are differences for the being free between a district and a person!!!!! As a nation, under no circumstances is US concerned about every Taiwanese as an individual person being free, but US is rather concerned the Taiwan as a district being a free nation because it meet US national interests!!! Please don’t confuse the concept of being free. And please see how US treats Taiwanese before the 1990s!!!! Are your US really concerned about Taiwanese??? Not be kidding. I can also offer other examples how US treats other countries in terms of being free, but if I do so, it will be beyond this thread. 8) 8)

Well, we look for what's the best interest for us, no one goes anywhere to be killed if that isn't a fight for our nation or there isn't a big reward for our nation.

Originally Posted by devmim

Hello Italian Guy, I think perhaps you aren¡¯t concerned about the present international politics, which determines the trend of every country¡¯s military strategy.

If Taiwan has long been an ally for you the West, the China is getting more valuable ally for the European Union than Taiwan, especially for the France and Germany. The France, Germany as well as U.K. decided to support disembargoing weapon to China, and I think it is only problem of time. China¡¯ve already participated in European Galileo satellite Project, which challenges US similar system and can be used in military purpose. China, France and Germany all possess similar views for the world¡¯s situation and oppose the monopolar world.
What the China has made with EU are the ones that US aren¡¯t unwilling to see. In the US eyes, the EU are betraying Taiwan.

Mmmmm Devmim how about this: What is wrong in a country that was found as an anticommunist rock against the reds ?
Whats wrong in something that is soooooo much closer to democracy and to human rights concern than China is ? Why would they want to join Red China ?
What fault was it that a couple of million people wanted to escape communism ? In the year 2004, what makes you think that a fast growing free market and almost democratic country will be absorbed by a dictatorial country? By the way thanks for not letting Hong Kong elect their own Parliament, as you guys had promised them. Not surprising at all life was way better for them under UK authority and they miss it now.
Up with Taiwan 8)

Man, it should be CHINA to join Taiwan, along with some ashes on your heads as a sign of apologize.
5,000 people put to death in your country out of 5,500 all over the world, every year.
Yeah Taiwan is wrong, uh ?

Hehe, You got that right partner!

Originally Posted by Big_Z

devmim - You have to understand we think differently. We feel everyman should be free. No matter what the cost. Its burned into us from the day we are born. If Taiwan wants to be free then we see them that way. Like Israel i guess you could say. Its hard for us to understand your way of thinking as its hard for you to see ours. And by the way that war was over slaves and racism, The North was fighting for free rights for all and the south wanted their slaves to pick the cottin.

Correct, there. So that China would resemble the south rather then the north, in a sense.
Devmim, your view is that the State sways over individual desires, will, needs, values. Our view is the opposite, and for as hard as it may sound to you, our societies are build according to that view.
Freedom before money, democracy before economy, human rights before everything. Thats the West.. oh, and of course some McDonald's here and there.

Okay. From one point of view, the American civil war analogy works I guess. Except in this case, you could look at it like this: The government on Taiwan actually represents the North or the legal government of the country, which is the Federal US Government, and what constitutes mainland China actually represents the Southern states that rebelled against the legal government, or the Confederation. Why?

You see, in the U.S. Civil war, it was the rebellious south that pulled out of the legitimate government at that time, which was the US federal government, and went to war against it to have their own governing system prevalent. The whole Civil war, although it was about many things, mainly involved from the North trying to bring the rebellious southern states back to the federal system.

So to make this analogy work, you have to have the Government of Chiang Ki shek as the Federals, or the north: his Government was the recognized government of China at that time. The groups that were dissatisfied with his Government have to represent the south or Confederation. The north and south analogy will have to start there.

OK, the North had control of the money, the industry, the really good things I guess. By all accounts, this group should have been economically and militarily prepared to put down a pull out from the federal system by a rebellious group, which was the South. However, in the case of the rebellious group, they were victorious. Guess their Robert E. Lee and soldiers with a lot of heart just whupped them Northerners.

Rather than admit total defeat, the Northerners and as many followers as they can gather, go to Bermuda. There, because it still has an identity, the other nations that were friendly to the North still recognize it as the government of US, despite the fact it’s a lot smaller.

Of course, once the southern group gets its government switched from a war to a peacetime footing, the rest of the world will recognize the South as well. Some, like Great Britain, actually do. But the South never does get to that peaceful state entirely. Seems like there always something to do. A war that develops in Mexico takes some resources and time; a little kick from the Canadian government about the current border takes a little more time to straighten out, then there’s all them debts that some how the south gets stuck with because they are the victorious group that has the remaining industries.

Now the Northern group still wants to be the group that wants to rule the country, so they keep it business as usual: They act as if one day they will go back, so they keep the federal system going, even if it is a little island in the Atlantic.

The southerners are victorious, yet the nagging feeling that the Federal system may come back really bothers them: they don’t want any chance of living back under that federal system any more you see. So we have a stand off of sorts: In additions to all them other problems mentioned above, the South stands ready to repel the Northern group should they ever try to return.

The years pass. The North on Bermuda goes through a lot of adjustments: industries that can flourish on Bermuda do, the population increases, and things are really looking good for the Northern group.

The Southerners have tried to maintain business as they want it: cotton is grown, the food finally get out to the cities, mint juleps are drank. Life is serne. But as far as industrial progress is concerned, well they have all that land and resources, but since a good part of the really industrial minded folks went with the north, and since nobody in the south has any time to learn how to use it, being involved with them Mexico and Canada problems and always that little island in the Atlantic that keeps a lot of their resources tied up, things stay the same.

Now, most of them Northerners have lost their dream to return to the US but hey we have everything on Bermuda we need: banking, industries and taxes, so why should we want to go back.

However, them Southerners are just starting to realize that they need some of the people back, to run the factory’s, to do the figuring and the what not. Plus, all them countries that still out some misbegotten loyalty to the North, plus a built up of trust over the years, still do business with them. Because the south is new and its not sure of which way they will go, they are pretty much ignored.

Kinda sound familiar?

Originally Posted by devmim

No, I just applied the present US ways of dealing with the Taiwan’ problem to US itself. The US ways are ludicrous.

Really now? See that's what I don't understand, I know that you were attempting to compare Taiwan and China to the divided United States during the Civil War (an argument that does not wash in my book anyway) but beyond that, how are the methods employed during that conflict in any way similar to those employed in the current situation with Taiwan?
The kicker here is that, whatever else you may believe about China and its claims to various parts of the world, there has been a state of peace between China and Taiwan for 55 years, and an attempt to "reunify" your idea of what China is by force would be nothing less than an invasion of a sovereign state, regardless of what you might name that invasion, and would be responded to by the world as such. The claim to "owning" Taiwan or however you want to put it holds no more water than Hitler's claim that taking Czechoslovakia in 1939 was a valid "reunifying" act instead of an act of open aggression did.

And by the way, if you are going to call my nation or any other "ludicrous," you better be willing to put the effort into making a coherent argument as to why you think that is true..