Is China Better off just letting Taiwan go and do whatever?? - Page 11




View Poll Results :Would China be better off if Taiwan were a recognized Independent Country??
Yes, Absolutely! 9 33.33%
Maybe they would... 5 18.52%
No, Definitely Not! 12 44.44%
Other (please explain) 1 3.70%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Boots
 
December 3rd, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroSpike
Cowards or not, that i don't know. Why don't you just vote about Taiwan's independence. Let the majority of taiwanese decide the matter of independence and all would be happy without any war.
Because the PRC has told its people so many times that "Taiwan has not right to decide the matter for itself." that they believe it 100%. If they democratically chose Independence and that Independence took effect, the PRC will invade. That's what we've been talking about all along remember.

BTW Frog, EuroSpike is right about a lot more nations that USA and Japan caring about Taiwan. As always, the underlying thing is trying to keep both China a Taiwan happy-- a very awkward balancing act.
December 3rd, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroSpike
No but it surely give wide international attention where China could have good possiblities to act positively and better it's reputation on other international community.
PRC has told world numerous times, PRC will take Taiwan when necessary, at ANY cost, therefore PRC's territory integrity is above ALL.

Quote:
Cowards or not, that i don't know. Why don't you just vote about Taiwan's independence. Let the majority of taiwanese decide the matter of independence and all would be happy without any war.
Vote, no problem, but why only taiwanese vote? PRC citizens should vote for this too. But we already know 99.999% Mainland Chinese and 99.999% Oversea's Chinese are FOR Unification and Against Seperation, therefore voting makes no sense more, we already know the result.

All would be happy EXCEPT Mainland Chinese and majority of Oversea's Chinese? Why should Chinese people make other people happy about Chinese affairs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Because the PRC has told its people so many times that "Taiwan has not right to decide the matter for itself." that they believe it 100%.
But I once told you, that IF PRC government does not take Taiwan back, the Chinese people would overthrow the PRC government. Therefore, there is not such a thing that Chinese people are brainwashed, in fact, People's eyes see things much more clear than most governments in the world.

And if you can read Chinese, I advise you to go Chinese forums, there PEOPLE are getting angry why PRC government still talks BS with Taiwan, they just want action, as soon as possible.
December 3rd, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
-- see above

Sorry, I accidently did a Back to Back post.

I tried to delete this, but cannot find the Delete Button?
--
Boots
December 3rd, 2004  
EuroSpike
 
[quote="godofthunder9010"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroSpike
Cowards or not, that i don't know. Why don't you just vote about Taiwan's independence. Let the majority of taiwanese decide the matter of independence and all would be happy without any war.
Because the PRC has told its people so many times that "Taiwan has not right to decide the matter for itself." that they believe it 100%. If they democratically chose Independence and that Independence took effect, the PRC will invade. That's what we've been talking about all along remember."

Good propaganda to brainwash people to believe it and not to resist.

"BTW Frog, EuroSpike is right about a lot more nations that USA and Japan caring about Taiwan. As always, the underlying thing is trying to keep both China a Taiwan happy-- a very awkward balancing act."

IMO If China invades Taiwan, that should cause an international economical ban (like Cuba) and all global companys should pull their affairs and manufacturing out from China. It would be economically very expensive, actually an economical and political suicide and Taiwan is not worth of that. Taiwan's situation is attentioned world widely and the media is on taiwanese side.
December 3rd, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Quote:
IMO If China invades Taiwan, that should cause an international economical ban (like Cuba) and all global companys should pull their affairs and manufacturing out from China. It would be economically very expensive, actually an economical and political suicide and Taiwan is not worth of that. Taiwan's situation is attentioned world widely and the media is on taiwanese side.
We already know that "ban" thing for long time, and PRC is very sure the "ban" will be mainly coming from USA, EU too to some level, but the MAJORITY of countries will do bussiness with PRC as usual. Btw, the "ban" will be of short term, and it is not a thing like "I ban you", PRC "bans" back too, it is a LOSE-LOSE case, no need to brag about it.

It will be expensive, for sure, but many normal Chinese experts have already discussed this issue long long time ago, and their point is: the "ban" will last like 10 years, ok, big deal, PRC can concentrate on the Internal Domestic Development, China is so huge, it is self a "world", we can do bussiness inside this "internal world" for some 20 years, and still can keep a GDP growth of 8% of 20 years.
December 3rd, 2004  
EuroSpike
 
"We already know that "ban" thing for long time, and PRC is very sure the "ban" will be mainly coming from USA, EU too to some level, but the MAJORITY of countries will do bussiness with PRC as usual. Btw, the "ban" will be of short term, and it is not a thing like "I ban you", PRC "bans" back too, it is a LOSE-LOSE case, no need to brag about it"

Coming from USA and EU, actually from all western countries and communities. Ok, but western community got the most of world's money and that is the effect of that ban. No money no honey.

The ban will damage China much more than USA or EU, plus if China gets banned it causes only that the manufacturing stays in Europe and people still have their work instead of losing it. Actually not a bad deal at all.

"It will be expensive, for sure, but many normal Chinese experts have already discussed this issue long long time ago, and their point is: the "ban" will last like 10 years, ok, big deal"

Big enough. Is Taiwan worth of that? I guess it is not.

"PRC can concentrate on the Internal Domestic Development, China is so huge, it is self a "world", we can do bussiness inside this "internal world" for some 20 years, and still can keep a GDP growth of 8% of 20 years."

You can do your business inside and isolated but it isn't the same. GDP growth is only a matter of way how to count it.
December 3rd, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
1. Not ALL Western countries. France, Germany, they would not listen to USA. And France and German presidents have warned Taiwan with hashy words: don't make trouble, otherwise you take what you deserve.

2. As I said, there would be high costs bound to the invasion of taiwan, but what PRC gains is much more than lose, you can count Taiwan worth of 10 trillion USD to PRC, do the math against the lose of "sanctions".
Btw, PRC has been "banned" after Korea War, so what? Big deal, nobody in PRC cares, life goes on.
And PRC has already got enough technology to produce ANYTHING, so cars and pc's will be rolling out factories, this time, no to sell to outside world, but keep them for ourselves, including all the nice clothes and toys too.

3. Think about "earth" as Isolated too, we don't do bussiness with Marsmen, still our world economy grows year after year. Same applies to Chinese domestic market, too huge, big enough to develop another 100 years, and the basic knowledge? We got them ALL.
December 3rd, 2004  
EuroSpike
 
"1. Not ALL Western countries. France, Germany, they would not listen to USA. And France and German presidents have warned Taiwan with hashy words: don't make trouble, otherwise you take what you deserve."

France and Germany are part of EU and they will do what is decided in EU. No matter of listening any USA. Certainly a peacefully solution of the problem is the goal.

"2. As I said, there would be high costs bound to the invasion of taiwan, but what PRC gains is much more than lose, you can count Taiwan worth of 10 trillion USD to PRC, do the math against the lose of "sanctions".
Btw, PRC has been "banned" after Korea War, so what? Big deal, nobody in PRC cares, life goes on."

Not as banned as it would become, and don't forget the effect of media. China would become as banned as N-Korea.

"And PRC has already got enough technology to produce ANYTHING, so cars and pc's will be rolling out factories, this time, no to sell to outside world, but keep them for ourselves, including all the nice clothes and toys too."

Yes but how about materials wich are used to make them? Do you have enough them?
December 3rd, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrog
It will be expensive, for sure, but many normal Chinese experts have already discussed this issue long long time ago, and their point is: the "ban" will last like 10 years, ok, big deal, PRC can concentrate on the Internal Domestic Development, China is so huge, it is self a "world", we can do bussiness inside this "internal world" for some 20 years, and still can keep a GDP growth of 8% of 20 years.
The problem with this statement is, as of now most of China hovers very close to poverty level standard of living and income. The thing that is spurring growth in the Chinese economy right now is having nations outside itself to sell to and in turn, those nations sell their stuff. The average Chinese citizen has very little disposable income to work with, so much of what China makes and exports now would have nowhere to go -- Chinese can't afford to buy it all.

If its well planned for, China can pull it off without too much economic damage to itself and (as you already said) continue to grow economically. It does take them off the fast track for growth that International Free Trade provides, making it impossible to grow at nearly equivalent rates. The rest of the world can survive without China just fine, and China likewise can survive without the outside world. We're not talking about survival, we're talking about both sides losing "the best possible sitution" economically. It would be a greater loss to China that it would be to the rest of the world. That's just how economics work. 1/6 of the planet vs 5/6ths.
December 3rd, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
1. Most European countries will do bussiness with PRC, no doubt about it. Especially when the war is provocated by Taiwan (declared independence).

2. Banned as N.Korea, that's simply not possible. As I said, only USA would pose an entire "ban" which will hurt USA badly too. Most other nations don't care at all.

3. Yes PRC got almost every material, including OIL. PRC is at this moment buying those ground stuff not because PRC does not have them, but the point is if you got money you'd better buy from others, keep those stuff buried in our own ground, just in case we need them badly then we dig them out, AND save a bit for future generations. It's a bit like what USA does now, USA got her own OIL too, but they prefer to buy.

The fact is: Chinese people really don't care much about the "ban" thing.

godofthunder9010:
yes it will be a big loss, no doubt about it, but PRC and Chinese people are already determined to crack down TI at ANY cost. So an annual GDP growth of 9% or 5%, does not bother PRC at all.

Also, if the "ban" is getting serious (damaging PRC too much), then many people including experts on PRC sides have talked following senario's for long time:
IF USA goes too far in the "saction" case, then PRC would abandon ANY international treaties, your enemy becomes my good friends then, they would be ready to equip USA enemies with ANY weapons they like to buy. Their logic is simple: you make my life bitter, I make your life bitter too. Of course, this would be a disaster to World Peace. So, let's root out any TI dream before it is too late, for the best sake of world.


EuroSpike:
JFY:
Chinese Oil Reserve is about 15 billion tons. While at this moment PRC consumes about 0.3 billion tons oil annually.