China' army - Page 9




 
--
Boots
 
January 8th, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
The 1800's saw some interesting things going on in East Asia. Both China and Japan, probably the most significant nations there, came into contact with the nations of Europe. Both decided that that these "barbarians" had abosolutely nothing to offer that they wanted or needed. China was the "Middle Kingdom" after all. What could these uncivilized newcomers possibly offer?

So English Ambassadors were forced to kow tow to an empty throne and Japan told everyone to get lost (to oversimplify). Both the Chinese and Japanese Empires quickly learned that the newcomers would not be ignored, and they had the power to force China and Japan to accept their presence, like it or not. The Qing Dynasty had not been the greatest power on Earth for a long long time, but they had no idea of that fact. They still viewed themselves as the center of everything, so finding out that they were the backward, technologically inferior culture was such a big shock that they the Dowager Empress and the Qing chose the path of denial. Managed to bring about the complete collapse of the Qing Dynasty in favor of the leadership of Sun Yatsen and later Chaing Kaishek and Mao Zedong -- leaders who realized that China desperately needed to catch up to the West. Unfortunately, they waged war on each other and this greatly hurt efforts to drag China and its people out of the dark ages and into the 20th Century.

Japan is another story entirely. They started out more closed off than China, but turned a complete 180 degree turn after several rude awakenings (courtesy of the USA, Great Britain and others). Their government was very very active in forcing "Westernization" upon the people of Japan. Despite the fact that they were (and still are) corrupt in numerous ways, one thing is very apparent. Japan got it right. They aren't just equal to the West in technology, economy and productivity. They surpass the West. Only the USA can outdo them in economic strength, and that is only because there are a lot more people in the USA than there is in Japan.

China had a giant blind spot for all of that, because their still very focussed on Japanese warcrimes committed back in WW2 (and rightfully so). But its a perfect model. Here we have a nation starting with a very similar culture to China's that managed to become better than the West at their own game, yet they remain very distinct culturally. That is what China and its people want to do, isn't it? Surpass the West and become the greatest thing in the World, right? So how did Japan manage it?
January 9th, 2005  
ironface
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snauhi
The problem with Chines army is the experience and probably tactics. China always used human waves when assaulting. And you cant just say "Chines army is best" until they have been in a conflict, looking good in the pics is one thing and fighting is the other. Remember that China is a communist country, everything that you will hear in the news or read on the internet(Chines pages) is not true because everything is censored.

I have a question, which tactics does China use, from what country its getting those tactics.


Yes that upper post is relevant because i just show how "fake" can web be.
oh,my god,there is still some kind of communist country in your mind!
actually,china is only a communist country in name!
January 9th, 2005  
EuroSpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snauhi
The problem with Chines army is the experience and probably tactics. China always used human waves when assaulting. And you cant just say "Chines army is best" until they have been in a conflict, looking good in the pics is one thing and fighting is the other. Remember that China is a communist country, everything that you will hear in the news or read on the internet(Chines pages) is not true because everything is censored.

I have a question, which tactics does China use, from what country its getting those tactics.


Yes that upper post is relevant because i just show how "fake" can web be.
I would like to get accurate info about chinese military training: handbooks, training time and periods, week and day schedules, issued equipment, NCO and officer training, combat regulations, unit's organisation charts.

Handbooks specially about all trained things and tactics used. Lowest level small unit tactics (squad, platoon, company) and higher level (battalion, regiment, brigade, division). From where should i ask things like these? From local library? 8)
--
Boots
January 9th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironface
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snauhi
The problem with Chines army is the experience and probably tactics. China always used human waves when assaulting. And you cant just say "Chines army is best" until they have been in a conflict, looking good in the pics is one thing and fighting is the other. Remember that China is a communist country, everything that you will hear in the news or read on the internet(Chines pages) is not true because everything is censored.

I have a question, which tactics does China use, from what country its getting those tactics.


Yes that upper post is relevant because i just show how "fake" can web be.
oh,my god,there is still some kind of communist country in your mind!
actually,china is only a communist country in name!
so you get a choice of parties to vote for now do you?
January 9th, 2005  
Sexybeast
 
even u voted someone in U.S , does not mean u can tell him wut to do,
wut if Bush did something that u dont like when he is president, wut can u do to stop him....NOTHING

and right now 48% of ppl do not want Bush to become president, yet he comes,, half of ppl are just being ignored...

no system is perfect, do not think having an election will make everything perfect
January 9th, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gingerbeard
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
quote]

The point about Chaing Kaishek is simple: he may have been corrupt. He may have been a completely terrible person. But he was pushing China toward developing technologically and economically, patterned after what was working in Western Culture. Communism did China no favors IMHO.
in fact the communist gov did alot for china. if the nationalist stayed i wonder if china could ever catch up so quickly today with other superpowers.
I'm not going to make the case that Communism hasn't led to progress. Anything was better than the Qing Dynasty and their ... bizarre stupidity in their dealings with the West. The Communist government of China has made significant progress, but the problem is that it's a flawed system. Communism and Human Nature don't quite work together. Its an elegant concept otherwise, and it does initially tend to develop nations quickly. It later stagnates because its people inevitably realize that they have nothing to gain by working harder or better.

Consider the current level of development of Japan and compare that to China. Sure, Japan had a bit of a head start, but they also had an enormous setback in their defeat in World War II. (As I inferred before, I'm not making the case that Japan is perfect by any means, just a good example of a East Asian country that is caught up.) Japan is up to date technologically. They are an economic powerhouse. They are second only to the United States in those areas, and they are second only because they have a substantially smaller population. They're an example of what China might look like if Communism hadn't won out.

Quote:
due to corruption was rampant. if China rely on US then i bet US will make china into a puppet state.
I don't know why this concept always comes up. "Being too friendly with the United States makes you their slave." or similar thoughts. The real world certainly doesn't work out that way. If it did, western European countries would have never been critical of the United States about Iraq and Afganistan and Japan wouldn't have repeatedly tried to economically sabotage various markets in the USA by 'flooding.' Koreans wouldn't dare protest American military presensce in their country. There are an endless list of other examples I could use. Sure, the USA is selfish and activiely seeks it's own interests ... just like everybody else. But we don't setup puppet states around the world.

Quote:
i do admit the communist did alot of bad as well.

the communist gov. united its people to achieve its goals, everyone has to support it no matter how u feel, tho the cultural revolution and great leap forward has miserable effect. but still just look at the achievement today.
True, but as I said, Communism has proven to be a decent system to force progress at the beginning, but not in the long term

Quote:
if demorcacy happens at china in that time, china is made up of 54 minorities, what would this be like if every 54 minorities voted differeantly to each other??? even if someone is appointed, the other 53 minrities would rebel or cause trouble since china after WW2 is in a big mess. in fact only a state police and army are needed to put terror and order to those who dared to rebel. democracy dun work when majority of people have different goals, and democracy hinders its country at doing something, since not everyone agree to it and have the freedom to not support it. i think u saw that at the vietnam war.
Why are Chinese people so absolutely certain that representative democracy wouldn't work in their country?? Has it ever been tried?? There are quite a number of nations that rebuilt their countries as democratic states after World War II. I can't think of any of them that are doing very badly today. The fact that China has numerous ethnic groups is a poor excuse too. The United States has a lot more than China, and we still make it work. The problem is that throwing a country straight into complete democracy can be problematic, especially nations with populations of such enormous size. The only way to get democracy to work is simple: Once the majority has spoken, the losing minority voice must accept it. Once you can get that to happen, democracy is going to work just fine.


Quote:
democracy doesnt always work
Agreed. It doesn't always work. On the other hand, can you think of anything that does always work for all situations?

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u got to keep that in mind, perfect example is india. i bet if india had a government like china, those people would abandon their caste system and will be able to control the population bloom better.
You're forgetting that the caste system was not instituted with democracy and freedom in mind. One might say that the Aryan invaders used it to keep control of a minority population that vastly outnumbered them. The spiritual lessons of that system are fascinating, but its not a very efficient system economically or technologically from what I've seen. Democracy states that everyone has equal power in government -- one vote. The caste system places virtually all power in the hands a tiny elite group.

Quote:
each system has weakness and strengths, dun just look in the strenght just because there is success in US and the west. remember Hitler, Stalin and other powerful nations were made by dictators. if Germany in 1930s never changed its democracy then i do not think germany had the power and tech to wage war.
I'm not making the case that Democracy is always the best system, but I've yet to learn of a better one in our modern times. Other systems have operated admirably for specific goals. They may equal democracy or even surpass it for awhile, but we've yet to see one surpass it for long.

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if democracy is always right?
Who ever said it was???
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then why made the wrong decision to go to war in iraq?????
It has yet to be seen whether the USA's invasion of Iraq was a wrong decision. Time will tell. Also, bad intelligence has lead to plenty of mistakes and democracy is not immune to this. It's perfectly likely that Iraq will be better off in the end, but we just can't see yet. [/b]
January 9th, 2005  
Sexybeast
 
settle something down here..
communism is unrealistic and proven to be brutal and unsuccessful

democracy is PROVEN to work better than communism although no system is perfect, democracy makes mistakes too, but not big mistakes like Cutural revolution....

i really hoped that nationalists won the civil war in 1949 and joins the western democratic coalition..but saddly nationalists had a bad leader during that time and seemed U.S lost faith to him and didn't really help him when he lost the war in mainland china

but since it all happened, so it is useless to complain too much

if u want democracy in china now...i am afraid it won't work,
china has 800 milllioin lowly educated farmers who do not give a damn about who are they voting for but who gives them more short-term good before election night...can u trust the fate of a such big country to them...
it may be disastrous..

and china has a huge unemployment problem..if not the iron fist of chinese government, there will be riots everywhere in china and surely it is possible that turns into another civil war...

and 1/5 population of world will be suffering and they may start to threat the security of other nations around china..

china's nuke tech may fall into terriosts' hands...then U.S may suffer too...

it is very complicated and u cant just say democracy will solve all the problem in china
January 9th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexybeast
even u voted someone in U.S , does not mean u can tell him wut to do,
wut if Bush did something that u dont like when he is president, wut can u do to stop him....NOTHING

and right now 48% of ppl do not want Bush to become president, yet he comes,, half of ppl are just being ignored...

no system is perfect, do not think having an election will make everything perfect
well first of all i'm not in the US or a US citizen. but my point was...free and fair elections are usually the gauge of wether a country is fair. to my knowlage, chinese govt is still communist in nature ( ie polit beuro etc )
and although 48% of people didn't vote for bush, they can protest his actions without tanks being run over them ( well, at least for now! )

they chinese economy may be a bit more free, but the Govt still has a long way to go
January 9th, 2005  
Sexybeast
 
well, first there is no proof that PLA ever runs over a chinese citizen..
(a video shows a man blocks tanks , but he was dragged away by his firends later and tank didn't crush him)



i totally agree taht democracy is better and much fair than communism

china will become democratic one day, but certainly not now, (details see my previous post)
January 9th, 2005  
gingerbeard
 
gosh! i got plenty to reply here! i got work to do too! yes i do know about the House of Flying Daggers, in chinese that film's name i think it means ambushed by 10 sides, a phrase use when it is a total ambush. right, start off with the fall of Tang. quite controversial here, because the emperor has a growing impopularity, some say the Battle of Talas did cause a series of rebellion after that. personally i do not believe it so since it was seen as a small loss to the Tang. the chinese put in the field 30,000 men (considered small at that age and to chinese history, the arabs say they have 10,000 men but it is inaccurate since they judge it by eye) and they lose due to the fact the arabs out numbered them to 70,000-80,000 and the turks decided to join in and came to the chinese army's back which was totally surrounded the army. but the chinese didnt consider it was important battle, since the land the chinese lost was small and the troops lost could be easily replacible.
when a dynasty is about to end, it happens all the same, chain rebellion, and civil war, as the generals wanted land, it splited into 10 kingdoms. this was the time the northern tribes came and defeated the splited kingdoms one by one since they are not united. the Tang was a pride to the chinese, today alot of chinese still call themselves Tang people. but mosty Han people since Han is another great dynasty. in fact militarly Han and Chin dynasty was stronger than Tang.
right as with what people say about democracy. sexy beast was right about the situation of china, the point i am trying to point out is that majority people in the west shouldnt say china should be a democracy. the chinese government is changing to be more liberal. and this takes time

in fact most people do not know this, but they do have voting in china, in a sense it is more liberal and fairer becuase each person's vote is not wasted in a sense (tho is controversial), here's why: for example, each people in a village inside a province vote a representative, the cillage representative vote a town representative, the town representative vote for a province representative, the province representative vote down to 10 people, then to 3 then to 1. not sure about the exact number, but the 3 and 1 is right.

sexybeast and godofthunder, u got to make sure this tho, china is communist in name, and communist is not the only system where u cant vote more than 1 party. its is now a one party ruling state. more like Nazi party in germany during the 1930s and first half of 1940s. but party leader can changes now and then so it cannot gain huge power unlike Hitler, and also not as brutal and extreme of course. and who says one party system dun work? and if it doesnt work then how come china is the country that modernising faster than anyone else? and u cant call it long term since its only 50 years and the system of government has changed alot in these 50 years, china has realised total communisium doesnt work.

as i said before, china after WW2 aint going to work and i am not going to say the reason again. japan rises so quickly becuase they saw china as a threat so they funded japan as a buffer in asia, u got to know, US governed japan after WW2, u wont say that is democracy since u wont say its democracy in Hong Kong before 1997.


Caste system in india still exists in villages, the point i am trying to point out is that india's government is weak and slow to react. if this happened in china it would be abolish way before it is now. corruption is much higher in india compare with china. the gd thing about "communist" or dictatoral gov is that they could put reforms much quicker than democracy. at the moment china still needs this kind of gov. and it is moderating with the changing situation of china. lemme give u an example china has made women divorce possible when the communist gain control. u must know Caste system is a long tradition in india, so is no divorce decision for women in china.

what i said above is that when the country is in a stage where is needs major modernisation, democracy isnt the best for it to be. in fact u need a dictatoral gov. to set a platform for democracy to work. example is china and india.

point is, European states did not rely on US, japan did after WW2. if china does then china is more like to be. not to an extent to be called a puppet state. but i think the situation is like the relationship of Isreal and US. as with the korean riots about US forces in south korea, u got to know why, i met alot fo south korean and it is because US soldiers rape some korean women before and their tanks has accidently crushed some citizens. u got to admit japan, south korea and isreal to listen to US orders. which country wants a foreign country's army to be stationed in its country? simply they can do nothing about it. but the korean citizen know the US army wouldnt shoot citizens that's why they exert pressure on the US forces to leave. surely US gov wouldnt allow south korean army to build a base and station in california.
i am sure there is more i will try to ask the south koreans them for u, but since i got some busy uni work to do i cant answer u guys that quickly. perhaps in a few weeks time.

and one of thing, u got to realise dictatorship or monarchy, has lasted a few thousand years more than democracy. the Greeks abandoned democracy not much of 100 years. so why does dicatorship or monarchy doesnt work?? or dun last?

as to EuroSpike, no i dun think u could. even if u can get a handbook it just pretty basic training which it wouldnt be suprising. since the chinese dont reveal their arms technology and training very much. they are quite conversative in this aspects.