Originally Posted by Doody

anyone know the death toll on both sides of the 2nd war in Chechenya? I know both sides downplay their casualties while exaggerating enemy casualties.

I have seen them somewhere but dozens of thousands russian robbers/rapers and dozens of thousands chechnyan people raped and murdered (sometimes first murdered and then raped). Russian actions in Chechnya with it's bunch of robbers and rapers is nothing else than a big war crime but chechnyans will pay back their debts like in Beslan.

Admin Edit: Posts like this are NOT accepted!

Palestinians have reasons for striking back the Israeli's are provoking them.

Chechnyans want to have their freedom but use way worse tactics to gain it.

Doody wrote: "It was Afghanistan, it is a BTR-60 armored personnel carrier, and the people on it are Afghans. That much is correct.

I think that armoured vehicle looks more like a BTR-60PB to be honest? Maybe Im wrong? But has not the BTR-60 opend-roof (cadilac-style) This soldiers are sitting on the top of the roof? It looks like that? What do I know? *lol*

Fooling around over here!

LINK:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/btr-60.htm

Okey yes this Checnyan war is something I think Europe will feel on for themselfe in the future. I think Europe will be divided in enclaves to be honest. Muslim community there - Christian there as the Balcans is today. France is the first country on the list if not the Duch get it first.

Cheers:
Doc.S

Originally Posted by EuroSpike

I have seen them somewhere but dozens of thousands russian robbers/rapers and dozens of thousands chechnyan people raped and murdered (sometimes first murdered and then raped). Russian actions in Chechnya with it's bunch of robbers and rapers is nothing else than a big war crime but chechnyans will pay back their debts like in Beslan.

Good that you read the kavkaz center where they get emails from the chechen field commanders that have internet in the forest.

If Chechens would fight a "normal" war then i wouldent call them terrorists.

And btw russian loses in the second war aint very high.

EuroSpike,

Have you ever been to Russia? Well its pretty damn scary when there are constant threats of terrorist attacks in the major cities. When a subway station blows up where your uncle walks through every day and isn't there by a miracle it is pretty scary. When an apartment complex blows up thats only a couple of miles away, its pretty scary. (All of this happened while I was in Moscow, where I stay upon return trips back to Russia). Also murdering children and civilian women in attacks in other places isn't something that I look up to. That's why I must say that until you have lived it, you cannot say that the Russian soldiers aren't justified no matter how brutal their tactics are. After actions like the Chechen terrorists have been doing for over a decade and the overall tension that has been in that region for centuries I must agree with some people that are currently conscripted and are professional soldiers that I know. If they are ordered on "zachistki" operations (cleansing) and the people they take, which are male, are never heard from again so be it.

Of course the sometime rape and robbing of civilians is an awful thing and its a major reason I look down upon Russia's military for. But, in all honesty the murder of school children is a hell of a lot worse. Part of my family used to live in Grozny and they got out before it got too bad in the first Chechen conflict. I've heard their stories. It's awful. Also for people that believe that Russia brought the terrorist attacks upon it's self I have a good factoid: They (Chechens) started slaughtering non Islamic, Russian Chechens before the war even started.

I quote (http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/429/429lect13.htm) "The first Chechen war (1994-96) followed the Soviet collapse and a simultaneous Islamic revival in Chechnya where Islamic Chechens started to kill ethnically mixed Russian-Chechens, one family at a time, and the Russians felt they had no choice but to intervene. 100,000 civilians were killed in this war".

Then I quote the same source "the second Chechen war (1999-present) was precipitated by the Chechen incursion into Dagestan (a Russian Federation country to the East strategically located next to oil in the Caspian Sea), but Dagestan was also a country Chechnya wanted to Islamicize, and did, somewhat successfully, since about half the population in Dagestan has joined Chechnya in its "holy war" against Russia and the other half of the population are refugees attempting to flee somewhere. International aid organizations attempting to help the refugees are handicapped by the prevalence of kidnapping in the region, and Chechen-Dagestani rebels have not hesitated to kidnap or execute any relief workers, journalists, or foreign nationals who enter the area. Dagestani government forces fight alongside Russian soldiers, but mainly do border patrol work. So far, 60,000 civilians have been killed in this war, and it shows no signs of ending, although the Russians have declared it officially over and want several hundred refugees in Ingushetia to return to Chechnya".

Also "Hit-and-run attacks are primarily used against the Russian military and Russian civilians. Chechen terrorism demonstrates an amazing ability to defeat the toughest of Russian security measures, presumably through deception, bribes, advanced technology, or inside intelligence. Roadside bombs, for example, are often placed along where a target is sure to travel, and Chechen terrorist training camps [video available at http://www.intellnet.org/resources/c...orists/6.html] are not only well-equipped, but technologically sophisticated, as e-mail and cell phone communication is quite common. Suicide attacks seem only to be used as a last resort, or at times when public sympathy is needed. Extortion, gun-running, counterfeiting, and kidnapping-for-ransom are internal sources of revenue, and external funding is received by al-Qaeda, Islamic charities, and reportedly Saudi Arabia. Popular support for the Chechen cause among the Muslim world is widespread. The Arabic satellite news network al-Jazeera frequently broadcasts reports of Russian abuses, often accompanied by graphic footage of dead or wounded Chechen civilians. The United States stands by Russia's right to subdue the Chechen rebellion, and the U.S. frequently downplays Russian human rights abuses in Chechnya. At any given time, Chechen terrorists hold about 700 international hostages, and at least 4 American citizens have been taken hostage and killed. Some Chechen terrorist ideology is strongly anti-American".

Looking at chchen tactics and palestinian ways - the palestinians seem much less organized - they aren't acting as a people. There are a bunch of different groups among them that take action on their own.
Chechnya is a different ball game. The attack on the opera house and especially the school put them on the same level as al queda - I say toast em.
I'm REALLY surprised that Putin didn't go ballistic after the school incident. While Russia's military isn't close to what it was 15 years ago, it is still powerful enough to wipe chechnya off the map.

Off topic: Palestine? Anyone that gets kids to strap bombs on themselves and kill civvies sitting in a market is on the wrong side and deserves everything that comes their way.

Also don't forget that one of the head Chechen Commanders Shamil Basayev took a Russian Civilian airplane over in a terrorist act back in 1991. Thats 3 years before any Russian activity in Chechnya. Another thing, I qoute from Basayev's Dossier, "On December 11, 1994, Russian troops invaded Chechnya from three directions, determined to wipe out the 300 "bandits" of the Chechen Republic. They were met by solid resistance, particularly in central Grozny where rebels blew up countless tanks and ambushed Russian troops in savage street battles. Dudayev and Chechnya's religious and political leaders declared a gazavat, or jihad, against the infidel invader, but the forgotten casualties of the opening days of the war were the thousands of Russian civilians who still made up much of Grozny's population."

Also "In June 1995, Basayev and a group of about 100 to 200 fighters en route to an unknown destination were surprised by police in the village of Budyonnovsk. Grabbing more than a thousand hostages from the town, they gathered in the local hospital and engaged in a bloody stand-off with Russian troops. As a preliminary to negotiations, Basayev demanded the right to hold a press conference before gathered media. When the Russians refused, Basayev ordered his troops to start executing hostages. The rebels eventually escaped in buses with a few remaining hostages"

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I completely agree with BushPig.

Read http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/article.php?id=3191
This is about the biggest pile of poo that I have ever read. Some quotes of what I couldn't believe I had just read "Their treatment of hostages was the most humane, as humane as the people who are going to face certain death can be.". This is about the theatre situation in 2002. It just so happens that at this exact time of writing I am also watching the HBO special on this Terrorist Act. The treatment of hostage was most inhumane with the terrorists killing some random woman for her comments while she was drunk!

mod edit:do not post back to back. Use the edit button to add to an existing post

Originally Posted by Vitaly

I completely agree with BushPig.

Read http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/article.php?id=3191
This is about the biggest pile of poo that I have ever read. Some quotes of what I couldn't believe I had just read "Their treatment of hostages was the most humane, as humane as the people who are going to face certain death can be.". This is about the theatre situation in 2002. It just so happens that at this exact time of writing I am also watching the HBO special on this Terrorist Act. The treatment of hostage was most inhumane with the terrorists killing some random woman for her comments while she was drunk!

what do you expect...

Well that's what I expected but I hoped that it would be something different because someone on these forums mentioned it as a valid source, not a bunch of tasteless b******t.

ok,im sorry for my words,but what i dont understand is how can that kind of terror be tolerated? i mean,russians go to war with checnyans from good reasons and all from a sudden UN and NATO and i dont know who else barge in and start the classic "violation of human rights" and "war without reason" stories,and when US (no personal offence or anything) goes to war with someone,then its ok,its aproved............i just need an answer on the question "how come is that like that".