Chechen war

@ LeMask- so far I have read your posts and agreed to most of them
@KV.- what is the point of your posts? do you disagree with LeMask or arguing for the sake of it?
@ all reading: well my $0.02ct goes as following- as mess as it is, despite next to impossible to justify most of current developments and injustices future don't look to be peaceful or fair for Chechen nation (despite, that arguably they've brought some of it to them self)
Never ending Squabbles between Azerbaijan and Armenia had ended up with Russia being granted until 2044 military stay... and is it justifiable for the Russian nation money and resources?- no! but there is overwhelming support for. Same with Chechnya- Believe, that thug supported and so called integrity of RF will have peaceful effect for Russia?- no, but such conflicts will justify "anti-terrorism" measures, armament and never ending interventions
 
Well KV, I dont understand how you get so excited. We are just talking here.

When I tell you that we have to break the cycle of violence you tell me that we cant just sit and bend over, and when I tell you that we have to limit the use of violence, you ask me about breaking the cycle of violence.

There is a kind of violence that is perfectly legitimate. If someone is running toward you to stab you, you shoot him. Nobody will ask you why...

This is what I mean by accurate use of violence. This is breaking the cycle. As long as you know who attacked first, you are in the green zone.

And give the people something to lose. A house, a government that cares about them, a job, respect, human rights, a future, security and stability, a girl to give them sweet kisses, a cold beer... I dont know, obvious things... And they will have something to lose...
 
I'm lost....

You've shifted from violence and authority, roots of all evil.

To promoting violence and shunning your original pacifist like stance in this same thread...?

Also I think a little tension is good in any region in moderation , helps get things done, hell the legislative branch in my country's government is set up like that. I am not saying that this should take the form of bloodshed however. I really wish Chechnya turned out like that, but still a part of Russia, I really really would hate to see the stated ruined, broke and starving , is that living? Is that really independence? Would they really be free? Not all forms of oppression come from human sources, you can be enslaved by many other things, including economic or social standstills.
 
Why do you call me a pacifist? I'm not. It's stupid to tell people to drop the weapons down completely...

We are here to discuss how to use them. Legitimate self defense isnt open for negotiations. If I ask you to let a terrorist kill you, you will tell me to "fu** off"... And I agree with you when you say that.

But it works also in the other way around... When you are attacking someone, this someone, who ever he may be have a legitimate right to kill you as well.

So saying "dont pick a fight" is a good way to break the cycle of violence. Just take out the legitimacy of the aggressor. It means no preemptive strikes... It means no invasions... Just stay at home and shoot the guys who come to get you.

And in the other hand, try to make things better for everybody...

This works perfectly, example:
The Chechen had every right to ask for independence. But if they took weapons to chase the Russian while there was a way to avoid bloodshed, they are idiots.

But if the Russians refused negotiation and used violence against the people making demands, then Russia was the aggressor...

And if the Chechen resorted to terrorism to give Russia a payback, Russia have to answer to their legitimate demands (independence, human rights) and at the same time limit the effects of terrorism by accurate use of limited violence. Like sniper fire to take out suicide bombers etc...

It's like a game, and the first rule is that the first to use violence have to lose.
 
So saying "dont pick a fight" is a good way to break the cycle of violence. Just take out the legitimacy of the aggressor. It means no preemptive strikes... It means no invasions... Just stay at home and shoot the guys who come to get you.

Sorry buddy but the world don't work that way, first off Chechnya was
"at home" for the Russians, and lastly any power who is anybody these days has foerign interest, things they look after because they have to have something, whether it be rubber in South America, oil in Nigeria, or for China, copper and other minerals in Africa, long story short, you can't just sit at home and plug your fingers in your ears and shut the blinds if you wish to continue your way of life and secure the things you need to continue being a devloped country. The concept is as old as human history, there are always domestic disputes, pirates or somthing of the sort out there to disrupt and jack up everything from oil prices (do not referance Iraq, all the oil money there went into rebuilding the Country) to shipping cost due to shipping companies have to pay higher insurance fees due to pirates. People at home may say, "oh thats horrible" but tell them what they use every day is about to stop coming, and see what they say then.


It's like a game, and the first rule is that the first to use violence have to lose.

So dealing with human life is a game now? I did not you out of anyone would advance such a notion. Also, there are plenty of military campagins that the aggresssor ultimatly wins. Sure the empire they belonged to may have collasped long ago, but that happens with every empire. Go to a developing country and tell the people there that their situation is a game, Im interested in the results.
 
Foreign interests? Do you mean power and money? You dont kill people for money... We allowed our government to do that for years, and look how wonderful the world is.

And dont give any legitimacy to this kind of thinking, dont forget about the principles of commerce. If you have oil in your country, you want to sell this oil to someone, or it's worthless...

And pirates/bandits are aggressors, you can use violence against them.

Life ainst a game. But I said that it's like a game. The guy who starts the war, the aggressor, is the one we have to fight. He have to lose, because he is the wrongdoer.
 
And if you belong to the country who is the aggressor? Fighting an NGO? Even if it is for the very things you need to continue your way of life? Listen the worlds powers do commence in commerce, like U.S. commercialism around the world, and strange relationship between China and the U.S.

But Russia was keeping a piece of itself in this instance.

Also, what you state is so cruel actually has been happening for thousands of years, yea it may seem bad, but thats fundamental human nature, I guess your not from this planet.

And when I stated that world powers are securing their interest, what did you think I meant? Posters with planes bombing poor underdeveloped countries, armed soldiers kicking in door, burning villages and taking anything of value? Thinking that way is a little dogmatic, nothing of the sort is generally advocated, protection of interest is advocated on many countries agendas, to secure the things, including in this instance, the parts of your very own country that will allow you to continue functioning as you know it.

That fundamental human thinking, if I encroached on your personal way of life, would you not resist in order to keep your way of living secure? You can not demonize every power or say they should sit around paralyzed and do nothing, I am sure that even in developing countries, once reaching industrialization, will do the same thing, to remove threats to their slice of limited resources, and keep their own country secure from threats, including succession, which has countless negative impacts on a sitting society. And most of the time, that does not include a destructive oppressive invasion or action of force to secure such assets,and by no means just take them, treating the acquisition of your country's necessary components that way would be utterly futile. But use of force in keeping them secure is not.

Besides if the world's developed countries were not doing it, someone else would, NGOs and violent groups do and would to exploit a regions resources, and unlike a industrialized country, we have little influence over them.

And if you wrong every instance requiring you to pick up the stick, then total mayhem,which is what you claim is accomplished now in a human society that very much resembles the human society age before it and so on,so I do no see why it is so strange, it would really degrade,and going back from that would be next to impossible
 
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Then we are the bad guys and the terrorists are right in bombing the **** out of us...

We cant accept that. We have to find a way to impose a win win situation where no body is left behind...

That the point in this moral/ethic quest I'm talking about. We have to get back to the fundamentals.

I say that we shouldnt be fighting with these people. That we are at peace with the real enemies.

I say give up the nations, the religions, the ethnic groups, strike them out of your mind... And protect honest people and wage war on criminals and corrupt people...

We dont have a military problem, but a political problem.
 
You can not bargin with extremist, once you give the militants what they want, they will only demand more concessions, might as well stand up to them now then give up anything when in the back of your mind, you know they won't go away that easily.
 
It's funny how you guys are scared of extremists, you see them as supermen, capable of fighting extra hard...

In fact, they fight hard because they really believe in their cause.

What we need is a strong cause to believe in. We have democracy... And it's a joke because of the high level of corruption... What is left is human rights...

It's our only hope. And I dont think that these extremists whoever they are, are asking for concessions, I know the countries where they live, and they dont have the very basics we take as granted.

I cant believe you when you say that mate... I dont like them as much as you do, but when someone is asking for his basic rights, I dont need to ask him who he is to give him that...
 
LeMask, you think Islamists believe in 'human rights'? Why don't you ask people in Afghanistan or Somalia. Ask girls there, who cannot go to school; women that cannot leave their home without permission of a male relative; all music was banned by Taliban; gays are stoned; adulterers as well. No. Wahabi Islam is the opposing force to human rights. They hate human rights. Women, homosexuals, and infidels, those of other faith then them are not human beings to them, so do not deserve rights.

Not saying Russia is not equally brutal toward Chechnya. Just that the Islamists are as bad. And stop preaching here from your Ivory Tower like you know everything. You, my friend, know nothing. I grew up next door to it all. I KNOW.
 
Dont put all Islamists in one bag.

And I wasnt talking about that. The question is "do you believe in Human rights?" enough to risk your life and fight for them?

In a battle of will, the extremists are stronger, they are ready for everything for their causes, even their silly causes are strong enough to fuel a powerful will to fight...

While us, with our democracy, our laws, our principles, our nations, all these big words... We dont have the same will. We need billions of $ to fuel any fight, and we arent even sure of winning the battle.

We need a cause strong enough to give us the will to fight whatever the cost... Do you have any?

Sorry mate, but I think I know more about Islam than you do. And I know people who deal with them daily. I never got my hands dirty, but my ivory towar is closer to the ground than what you may think...

And I dont use the official labels, I can even make my own... And even inside the salafists, there is levels of education... But I agree with you, it's nasty.
 
We need a cause strong enough to give us the will to fight whatever the cost... Do you have any?

Can't talk for the world. Or even my whole country. But my two peoples, Terek Cossacks and Ossetians fight the Chechens, Ingush, and Dagestani separatists and terrorists day and night, to the death. Our cause is very simple: we are Orthodox Christians. If we let them win, our children will have to live in a Muslim North Caucasus. We will not let that happen. We will fight them until they are all dead or we are.

That is what people there believe. I won't say I am that extreme. But they are. This fight went on for hundreds of years, Le Mask, since Cossacks, Ossetians, and half-bloods like me first went up into the mountains, to colonise North Caucasus and spread Orthodox Christianity there. Us and the Muslim tribes have been going at it since the 18th Century. And it won't stop now.
 
I'm not sure I wish you victory if that is your cause...

Because once you think like that, another Muslim will say "we have to fight them to the last one, because if we dont, our children will be orthodox christians."

I dont want to disrespect your belief, but I really dont want to see any of you win... because I dont want to see the extremination of any of you guys, or maybe to see you both disappear, as you are pretty much the same (only if what you said is true).

Well, it's so messed up. I think it's better to call you a christian extremist zealot... Why should I prefer you to a Muslim extremist? Because you let girls wear mini skirts?
You just called for the extermination of a people, how is that better?

Well... Cant follow you there mate.
 
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" Extremist Militant Sympathizer"
 
@ LeMask it would make sense not be obligated to reply to every single post or bait...
@ Yossarian- no need! just do you best in comprehension weather current Russian set up sustainable? pay attention not so far distant historic lessons about "territorial integrities of empires" and freedom fighters, especially religion, not just nationality backed-up.
 
@ LeMask it would make sense not be obligated to reply to every single post or bait...
@ Yossarian- no need! just do you best in comprehension weather current Russian set up sustainable? pay attention not so far distant historic lessons about "territorial integrities of empires" and freedom fighters, especially religion, not just nationality backed-up.

Simple way of wording things, I agree on looking at the history of empires, also the religious implications that could be used in Chechen's fighters doctrine, far as I can tell however, they seem to use it as a means of coping with the hardships of live as guerrilla fighters. They seem to be just as religious as anybody else who is faithful in other faiths.
 
I surely didn't expect this topic to be so burning...

You know, when people discuss wars they often tend towards maximalism with bad guys and good guys concept. But let's be honest with ourselves. In this war, there were no good guys, there were only bad and ugly.

I like it, LeMask, how you say that you don't know too much about history of this region. Well, you should know at least a little before discussing this matter, because in that case you would probably understand what does seeking for freedom and opression means in this context. If you are sure that the main reason of war was that the Chechen people wanted to be independent and Russian government didn't let them go, you have absolutely no clue what this was all about.
 
I agree Shmack, but I'm really paranoiac when it comes to governments... I dont like them, dont trust, dont want them around...

I really see evil in nationalism... I enjoy traveling a lot, but I'm really angry everytime they ask me for my passport... even when they let a nice smiling lady to do this task.

All these borders, nations... it's so artificial, I really dont give them any legitimacy.

I dont know what happened exactly between Russia and the Chechens... But I know that the Chechens are Muslims and that the Russians were communists a few decades ago... And these guys arent supposed to mix very well if you see what I mean...

So who forced it, and why dont you tell us what happened, give us the basics...
 
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