Chechen war

Let me give you my opinions on some questions you speak about here...

First, to my good friend Can Of a Man, can you explain to me how a soldier throwing a puppy is seen with this "military humor"... I really dont get it.
That "thing" you call a soldier is nothing but a crazy and stupid brute... Only a twisted mind would hurt for fun... And in particular when it's an innocent animal.

Back on topic:
The Russian territorial integrity comes from it's ability to protect human rights and justice. Violations of human rights to protect Russian integrity is just total madness...

Let me tell you how to spot a dictatorship. When people are struggling to gain more power... You should smell trouble. Power is a responsibility. People take responsibility because of a sense of duty. If they are struggling to have power (and then responsability) it means that their intentions arent noble...

Islamists arent the bad guys by definition... Many Islamists are honest people capable of living peacefully. But the Islamists are extremely religious people who refuse to negotiate on their principles... This is why they are hated so much. Because corrupt people cant make their dirty business with Islamists...

And the Russian army did some really nasty things when fighting the Chechen... A bit like they did with the Afghans... Some really nasty things... Rape, murder, mass executions, use of nasty weapons, destruction of civilian populated areas... They made monsters with these tactics...

I dont say that the Chechen are angels with gold wings, but that a huge military power crushed people... And those and saw the meat grinder werent human once out of it... And we saw the results with the terror attacks in Russian soil.

This is what happens when we fight offensive wars. this is what happens when we allow the strong to bully the weak. call it karma if you want, but this is how it works...
 
Sorry Can of a Man, but I'm in fact totally neutral. I have no agenda and no fidelity toward any side in any conflict.

I side with what I call "honest people" or "honest workers" for more accuracy. The real peaceful people who just want to live in peace.

I dont care much about the people who want to force an agenda on others for their own profit... may they be American, islamists, communists, russians, Chinese etc...

And in fact, what makes you say that about me? I really want to know where I lost you...

Are you fighting for the right to harm a puppy for fun?

Or maybe that you are so scared of anything we could label as Islamist that you panick when someone tells you that they arent evil?

Or maybe it's when I say that violence breeds worse violence?

I dont know.

So once and for all, Can of a Man, grow a pair buddy. How can you deal with life if you dont dare to open your eyes to see the truth? To see reality...
 
I do think that Russia actually holding itself together, was indeed a wise design. Putting myself in that particular pair of shoes. I gotta say, if a small piece of my country was trying to break away, I would be concerned to,imagine if more areas of Russia did that, then you just had a collection of smaller states in the area, things could have degraded very rapidly after that. I would rather have Russia in control over all of it's current territory, than a dozen of so smaller states, that could lead to situations like other place in the world, a dozen countries with questionable intentions.
 
Well, let's read you again and carefully this time.

"if a piece of my country" do you see the "my" in "my country"... We are not talking about a piece of your house, but borders on some map...

It's not like if they were sinking this part of the country in the sea. They just refuse the authority of a government, actually your government over them.

Tell me about the basic right they would deny you by doing so?

If I was your countryman and that I told you "man, I'm not like you, I dont trust you, I dont want to live like you. I'm making my own country with my people." where am I attacking you or denying you something?

Yes, it's not very friendly, and not really in your interest because you will find yourself with a smaller country. But how in the world it would give the right to send troops to march against the people who take these decisions?

Do you get my point? A nation's border isnt something holy... It may change with time. There was no European union 50years ago. These are arbitrary things built my men... They have no real value. Fighting and killing for them is stupid. We have to see beyond.

If you were a Russian national, you woulnt even notice that Chechenya took it's independance if nobody told you so...

In fact, by international laws, we have the right (under some conditions of course) to ask for independance. They call this the right of auto-determination.

But the problem is that we allow people to kill to build empires... We live in hypocritical warrior societies. Ruled by ruthless warlords with no moral values...

We should be asking people to take their independence. Not denying them their autonomy. Because ruling a land is a responsibility, and responsibility is always heavy... And only fools want it.
 
LeMask said:
I have no agenda and no fidelity toward any side in any conflict.

Haha, now that´s a lie if I ever saw one..

I side with what I call "honest people" or "honest workers" for more accuracy. The real peaceful people who just want to live in peace.

Everybody wants to live in peace, that is why they have an army doing their fighting for them.

I dont care much about the people who want to force an agenda on others for their own profit... may they be American, islamists, communists, russians, Chinese etc...

Bollocks, you try to force YOUR agenda upon us any chance you get.
When it comes back to bite you in the arse you backpaddle like nobody,s buisness.
Still want to give medals to people committing treason and help murdering people?

And in fact, what makes you say that about me? I really want to know where I lost you...

It tells me you are a whiner.

Are you fighting for the right to harm a puppy for fun?

Since you have never served you will not understand dark humor within the military.

Or maybe that you are so scared of anything we could label as Islamist that you panick when someone tells you that they arent evil?

And I have provided tons of examples to you when it is..

Or maybe it's when I say that violence breeds worse violence?

Based on all your extensive experience.

I dont know.

No you don´t, and you refuse to be educated.

QUOTE]
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
LeMask, seriously. You are not neutral at all.
I try to think in a rather neutral manner but I don't deny that I do have a side I am on.
As for Chechnya, I can see how both sides had a point. Russia had a very legitimate point for not giving into Chechen demands as well. Apparently you can't see that. Some neutral you turned out to be.
 
LeMask said:
Well, let's read you again and carefully this time.

"if a piece of my country" do you see the "my" in "my country"... We are not talking about a piece of your house, but borders on some map...

It's not like if they were sinking this part of the country in the sea. They just refuse the authority of a government, actually your government over them.

Tell me about the basic right they would deny you by doing so?

If I was your countryman and that I told you "man, I'm not like you, I dont trust you, I dont want to live like you. I'm making my own country with my people." where am I attacking you or denying you something?

Yes, it's not very friendly, and not really in your interest because you will find yourself with a smaller country. But how in the world it would give the right to send troops to march against the people who take these decisions?

Do you get my point? A nation's border isnt something holy... It may change with time. There was no European union 50years ago. These are arbitrary things built my men... They have no real value. Fighting and killing for them is stupid. We have to see beyond.

If you were a Russian national, you woulnt even notice that Chechenya took it's independance if nobody told you so...

In fact, by international laws, we have the right (under some conditions of course) to ask for independance. They call this the right of auto-determination.

But the problem is that we allow people to kill to build empires... We live in hypocritical warrior societies. Ruled by ruthless warlords with no moral values...

We should be asking people to take their independence. Not denying them their autonomy. Because ruling a land is a responsibility, and responsibility is always heavy... And only fools want it.
Click to expand...


La la la la ....(plugs fingers in ears)

I stand simple on this one, I understand why Russia went after the region as it declared independence, I am not going to share thougts on what was right or wrong about it. Thats all I got:/

I honestly believe if that snowballed and Russia fell apart, the region or the world would NOT be better off. Having something like that break apart creates dozens of more hurdles to overcome for the news countries formed,somet that many would most likely never overcome, frozen in a state of hardship.
 
Last edited:
KJ, I dont call this "my agenda", but my advices... Or my guidelines...

I like to share them indeed, I dont jam them down your throat. I share them, and I collect viewpoints and opinions.

You are the ones taking my opinions as an aggression...

And yes, I'm neutral, I hit both sides. Because both are doing some wrong... That the beauty of it, I dont have to chose a side. Why should I?

And you are wrong, some people dont want peace. Because they have a bunch of young naive men ready to follow a flag into any battle, fair or not... And because there is people who want to sell them weapons, to send them to conquer lands etc etc...

Some people dont want peace.

And you are the whiner here, every time you see a different opinion, you start calling names... You dont know how to deal with people thinking in a different way...

It's a forum for christ sake... You cant call people whiners...

Dark humor? I have to serve to be a dumb ass enjoying harming innocent creatures? You should shut up a little. Dark humor? We put people who do that in jail you smart ass. Torture an animal and you will enjoy a dark cell... How is that for dark humor?

You guys in uniform support each others even when you shouldnt be doing so... Is this the army or some kind of mafia like organisation? Show a little respect for your own uniforms and stop supporting such things...

No, I never said that. I say give medals to the people who take risks to reveal truth and support democracy. I let the judges decide who deserve jail time and who deserves a medal... But the judges have to be fair. Do you have a fair and free judge to decide?

I explained this many times, violence is a solution, not THE solution. For some people violence is the ultimate solution to any problem.

Violence? more violence. Unemployment? violence. Expensive oil? Violence. Cancer? violence.

But guess what? You cant solve any problem with violence. And Mister educated, you will learn that even the senior strategists working in the US military are looking for ways to limit the use of force because they learned recently that abusing violence helps terrorism...

In Afghanistan they are trying new doctrines that limit air-strikes to reduce collateral damage...
It's dangerous for the troops on the ground, because they have less air support... But the results is less crushed civilians... But better relations with the civilians.

having moral values isnt a bad or a good option... It's the only way.

So to make it simple:

Dont hurt puppies.
Easy on the brute force.
Dont go to war if you can avoid it.
Respect human rights at all costs.

Edit:
To Can of a Man,
It's hard to be neutral, but I try to not chose a side.
And I think that by being fair, you help everybody...

Russia cant and shouldnt use force to keep it's integrity. The day you need force to keep your people in check, then it's already too late for you...

I admit one thing, I dont know much about the history of the area... Eastern Europe and Asia arent my area of expertise to say the least... But I know that the Chechen should have avoided any violent conflict with a huge power like Russia. And I know that the USSR and then Russia arent the regimes you dream to live under...

I support the right to tell them to f*** off... In fact, I support to right to tell every government to pack up to let people live their lives as they want...
 
Last edited:
LeMask is right!
Never mind how much is known, but Chechens are very different nation to Russians and in my believe nationality/traditions and history taught so many times-any Country is @ best prospect of long wealth as oppose to Empire.
BTW I am sure current Russian imperialism towards neighbors in Caucasus will bite them back on the a$se fairly soon
 
You can have peace, but peace does NOT, under any means constitute freedom....

What I mean is, if Chechnya was let go, they may not recover well, and being under a stable government, and under the protection of a world power, can have it's securities.

I would hate to see the region gain it's Independence, then be stuck on the developing nations list indifferently. It's not that crazy to see that happening, thats what would worry me. There's whats good for you, and what you want, and sometimes, you can't fight the fact that they do not always go well together.

It sucks guys, but one thing that does sit on my mind before sympathizing with the Chechen's, is did they not send foreign fighters to the Middle East to fight the Coalition? I think about that you know.
 
Last edited:
Sometimes people would rather trade some wealth for autonomy.

Chechnya probably had its legitimate reasons for wanting independence.
Russia's need to keep its territories together was also legitimate.

As for Chechens going to fight for the wrong side in the war on terror... that's a different subject.
 
Atasas said:
LeMask is right!
Never mind how much is known, but Chechens are very different nation to Russians and in my believe nationality/traditions and history taught so many times-any Country is @ best prospect of long wealth as oppose to Empire.
BTW I am sure current Russian imperialism towards neighbors in Caucasus will bite them back on the a$se fairly soon
Click to expand...

Says a British who is bitter about losing their empire lol

But, no, I agree. Simply beating us down with the army and the internal troops won't achieve anything. If we are all to share this country, we have to learn to live together, not hate each other. Chechens are not different to all Russians, btw, Cossacks and Chechens are quite similar, for example. But then Cossacks have more Caucasian than Russian in them, I know, I am one :)
 
I would hate to see another failed state, yea, they would be free, but starving? And similar to the 13 American colonies relationship with Great Britain, even after gaining freedom, I do not think that Russia would be entirely done with them yet.

Yea, they would be free but they could have many new enemies and economic struggles to deal with, doing such, I an war torn atmosphere with little to no assistance, would be almost futile, at least, very hard to do.
 
Yossarian, they didnt send foreign troops to a foreign country...

For Islamists, there is no borders or nations, there is the lands where Muslims live and lands where they dont live... (I love that part by the way as I'm an anti-nationalist)

So, if the Muslims are at war in Iraq, it's like if they were at war in the next city inside a same country... The "strong men" move there to take weapons against the invader.

For them, it's like moving from a neighborhood to another... Or from a state to another in the US.

If you accuse them of putting their noses in foreign affairs... >You are mistaking, because the guys who recruit them tell them exactly the opposite. They tell them "why are you ignoring your brothers and sisters who are under attack."

Do you see what I mean?

When the USSR invaded Afghanistan, there was Mujahideen coming from all over the world to kick communist butts out of a Muslim territory.
The USA understood that very well... They are just playing dumb if they tell otherwise about Iraq, they knew it was going to happen.
 
That much is true.
The idea of concrete borders is a Western one and although it has spread to many parts of the world, it is far form universal.
 
Well, it is somehow "universal" to some extent... They understand it somehow... But they oppose this kind of thinking. They see it as a tool to enslave them.

In their political position, their beliefs, the Muslim world/empire is cut into pieces by corrupt governments using borders to separate the population and make them fight each others or at least not fight with their brothers...

And they are trying to unify the Muslim countries under one government, one religious doctrine etc...

This objective is very clear for every Muslim. They just dont agree on how to do things, the ruling elites dont want that of course (they would lose all power). But they arent Islamists. The moderate try to do so through normal politics. While the extremists use violence... And some through extreme violence (terrorism and such)

I can tell you that in a few areas of France (bastions in fact), there is Islamists who forbid the commerce of Alcohol in the local cafés, and between themselves they call it "liberated Islamist republic of (add name of the area)" or "liberated emirat of X"... Crazy determined bastards...

You can see same organizations in the UK and Iraq. These guys are very "dynamic"... Extremely active...
 
That's why I do not understand how some will act like the threats would just go away. I'm not making a stab at Islam, an not making a reference that the war is blamed on Islam, so please don't reply with a book page about how that is not the case.


Anyway, I admire the view of if you brothers are in a struggle, you must travel to assist, that is something I could relate to, what I do have a problem with however, is how the extremist choose to do so, by targeting soft targets, and also how they treat the ones they want to dictate power over. I know the Islamic world is extremely rich in culture, dynamic, and has many different views on life than it's western counterparts, that can add to the difficultly to understand the region they are currently engaged in.

Is the war on Islam? No, but it can not by any means be ignored, and will have to be worked with, the extremist use it to their advantage at times, and to appeal to new members, but disrupting that, might be where the moneys at.

I don't know if that was already tried or not though :/

As for Chechnya, you must look at Russia now, it does indeed hold many many ethic and cultural groups that different, but I still do not think that if the region did gain Independence, that things would only degrade for them, and Russia could have more regions asking for the same thing at that point, which could lead to obvious problems.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top