Chechen war

[Yossarian]

I support government in the region of Chechnya, on the basis that even though it may not be the best type of governmental influence, for the short term it may help put a freeze on the violence, which could prevent the situation from turning into a broader conflict or human rights issue.


The struggle for independence may have been buried under other innitiatives, but before you go blaming the local governments of the parties involved, a "governmental body" is not an invisble object that is resposible for world tragedy. These bodies are made up of a body of individuals, they are human just like anybody else, and even some NGOs can operate almost extacly like a governmental body , the only difference is that they are not offically recognized.

And yeas, it is very unfortunate that you need to go through certain security procedures when you travel, but with for instance a Passport, sometimes it can be benificial for the saftey of the people in that region to know who is coming into their country, sometimes, many of those threats that reinforce those precautions come from bodies that are antiestablishment, and it is funny becaue when they do carry out an act of violence, the first thing people like to say is, what was the local government doing to allow this to happen?

 

[Shmack]

I agree Shmack, but I'm really paranoiac when it comes to governments... I dont like them, dont trust, dont want them around...

I really see evil in nationalism... I enjoy traveling a lot, but I'm really angry everytime they ask me for my passport... even when they let a nice smiling lady to do this task.

All these borders, nations... it's so artificial, I really dont give them any legitimacy.

I dont know what happened exactly between Russia and the Chechens... But I know that the Chechens are Muslims and that the Russians were communists a few decades ago... And these guys arent supposed to mix very well if you see what I mean...

I'm not sure but i think you mean you, LeMask, are a commited anarchist and idealist.

So who forced it, and why dont you tell us what happened, give us the basics...

Fine, i'll tell you.

In late 80's when it was already obvious that the Soviet Union is going to break apart, people who were in Chechen government, as well as in other Russian republics and regions and all other Soviet republics understood that as soon as the USSR falls, their power will come to an end. Soon, when Boris Yeltsin becomes president of Russia he will restrict CPSU and its Russian republican organization on Russian territory which would mean that all regional leaders in Russia are to become outside the law, including Chechens.

That is the reason why regional Chechen authorities began instigating anti-communism which in fact was pure russophobia, and separatism. Those people who didn't like the course and tried to stand against this were killed when in September 1991 Supreme Soviet of Chechnya was overtaken by separatists. That is how Chechnya's 'independece' began.

In summer 1992 the Chechens captured all Russian military equipment that was stationed in Chechnya. Dudaev who was leader of Chechnya connived at forcible eviction of Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians, Georgians and all other non-Chechen people. There were numerous cases of murders of Slavs. It was 1992, two years before the first war.

How did this truly independent republic earn for life? I'll tell you that. The Chechens stole Russian petroleum and then sold it to Russian ports. The Chechens robbed Russian trains, for example in 1993 they robbed 559 trains which is 1.5 trains every day. They kidnapped Russian nationals, as well as foreigners, including journalists who came to make reports about their life. There were slaves, in the late XX century, there were slaves and slave owners.

But the most important is that Chechnya became an offshore zone for all Russian criminals and mafia. That is the exact reason this disgrace existed for so long. It was the best place for laundering money, trafficking, and many people in Russia and former Soviet republics used this, inculding high ranking military people and politicians, including Boris Yeltsin. Russian government never ceased to transfer money to Chechnya which was immideatly spent on.. hospitals, schools? No, on drugs, weapons and villas in Arab Emirates for leaders of Chechnya. Of course Yeltsin had his cut.

And only after they started pressing Yeltsin to stop this and it was getting really tough islamists came to power in Chechnya. More than 4 years, LeMask there were no borders, no governments and passports in Chechnya. Did the Chechens prosper from that?

LeMask, please note i'm not asking you to take my side or Prapor's. The only thing i'm asking you is just to face the facts. Chechnya had absolutely no chance to become a sovereign state which could give its people possibilites for a decent life. It borders only Russia and Georgia, it has no sea shore, it has no natural resources, it has no financial resources. There was not a single working university in the entire Chechnya during all 90's. Not a single per more than a million people. There is nothing Chechnya could ever offer to international community. And if those people were not citizens of Russia, my fellow citizens, i wouldn't give a damn about genocide, starvation and slavery there. But if a country wouldn't care about its citizens, then i would agree with you and become anarchist.

 

[LeMask]

Honestly, I had no idea that such things happened...

I'm not really an "anarchist" as you say. I dont like actual governments, It doesnt mean that I refuse the idea of a police or a military to secure the land. I believe in politics, but I refuse politics when they happen outside democracy...
We disconnected the people from power, from security, from so many things... And we gave full control to some elites we dont even like/know/trust/want...

And the governments are just the new slave masters. At your birth, they tag your ass, they give you a passport, a nationality, a stupid thing you didnt even chose...
It's not because they love you, but to get your tax money and your hard work... And make no mistakes, they lie to you and send you to war against the others... If not with weapons, it will be with your hardwork... If you are lucky, you will be in a powerful gang/country. And you will be well fed, and they will pay you 10 times more.
And if you are unlucky, they will cut your lands into two artificial groups and they will send you to war against your own brothers... And while you are fighting, they will take natural ressources in your backyard and sell you weapons...

I dont need this drama... If I didnt ask for it, I dont want it. I dont care where I was born... I give them my passport because I have no choice. In the past, any human being could travel whenever he wants without paperwork...
But today, we are like gangs... And the hypocrisy is huge...

I live most of the year in Paris. And I see it. If you are a Muslim guy from Pakistan, we dont want you, we tell you go home, because you are going to ask for 4 wives, because you dont respect our values, because you are a working person and that working in this country isnt a right but a privilege we give to our gang... so get lost. Go back to your cave.

But if you are a rich Saudi prince, please, take my little girl as your fourth wife... oh? you have already 4 wives and 56 slaves? Well, she can work as a prostitute if you want... No questions asked...

We speak about values and we sell them for some green...

For me, democracy is when simple people gather to take decisions, not when ruling elites gather to tell simple people what to do...

And guess what mate, we dont need money to do that... No natural ressources are needed. We always say that we need tons of money to make a democracy... Look at the case of Mali. It's far more democratic than France, and it was one of its freaking colonies...

A land can prosper without natural ressources sir... believe me.

And if Chetchenia turned into a chaos land, it's because of the all the criminals who roamed that land, it's because the honest working people living there were so disconnected from power that they were too weak to control that territory...

And it's not an exception... Islamists appear in these very conditions... When crime and lawlessness is everywhere, the good honest people turn into extremists to survive...

I noticed this all over the world. Where there is corruption and an ideology asking for some kind of justice (even if it's medieval)... the people give more and more value to this ideology...

Justice is a natural need some people have... When it's gone, they become crazy... It's like food, they start eating each others when they have nothing to eat...

 

[Shmack]

Everything that you said is right, but there is not a single country on entire planet which can offer you that kind of democracy. And of course Chechnya was pretty far from being the first one. Russia as well didn't bring instaneous and absolute prosperity and harmony there, but one has to be realistic about this: Chechnya had no choise between democracy and non-democracy, and at this very moment Chechnya looks like a much more free society than it used to be several years ago.

Of course natural resources is not the only thing you need to prosper. You should at least have certain intentions. I'm afraid prosperity and democratization of Chechnya was not on top of separatists' agenda. That was not a social revolt, that wasn't an uprising of the opressed. That was nothing but a flagitious and tragic venture.

 

[LeMask]

Well, they didnt send care bears to liberate Tchetchenia with hugs and kisses...

They sent men to do the job. War crimes happened, murders, torture, rapes... And honestly, I dont trust Russia's military...

Maybe I'm full of prejudice, may god, the pope, buddhah, Karma, Allah, jesus or the holy flying spaghetti monster forgive me if I'm wrong... But I'm mad like hell since all the rapes that happened in east Germany in WWII...

I dont trust people with such a "military history"... I'm sure that the new generation is more educated and more disciplined... But the few images and documentaries I saw about the Chechen War, there was poor kids fighting in that war... with no education and poor training and equipment... They didnt send the elite of the elite to do a clean job... I know that a war costs a lot, but come on...

I would be glad to support any war where true men are wasting criminals... But we have to clean our homes and impose high standards of democracy before trying to export our way of life...

 

[adam7]

Russia turned over poor uncontrolled clique to a rich loyal clique. Provoking collaborationism was the fastest and the most safe way to 'restore constitutional order'.

Meaning autocrazy/military/police state rule...

In this case clan rule.

Some of the ladies are really forced to wear them, but i can assure you most of them are wearing the scarves because they wish to do that. Most often just to show how Chechen they are, how they love God and hate the Russians. That is how these wars affected youngsters.

And they don't have a reason for that feeling?

Most of them? Who took the poll? I can assure you that I have different information.

As i've mentioned above by letting the Chechens go, Russia would let the whole North Caucasus go. No matter who was in lead of separatists.

Yes, that would probably have been the consequence. But would that have been a bad thing? Unless you are an imperialist...

This is a common misbelief. You know, between 1995 and 1999 Chechnya was de-facto an independent state. Did Russia keep islamists out of Russia? No. Because kidnapping Russian citizens was the best way to earn money in Chechnya. Is that whay you're calling 'to keep out'? Russia as well as the whole world could have recognized Chechnya as a sovereign state, but it would never become really sovereign. It would stay as a thorn in Russia's flesh.

This reminds me of the old joke. In Russia a Chechen is equated to terrorist. This is a fact. Not that a Chechen is a terrorist, but that Russians perceive all Chechens as terrorists. Enough for background.

The joke:
On an domestic flight in Russia the blond female Russian flight attendant caught sight of a dark little boy with beautifull locks. First she asked how old he was. "Five years" he proudly answered. Then she asked what nationality he was. He proudly answered "Chechen". Horrified she toook a step back, lifted her hand against her mouth and uttered: " Already at that age!"

You information is in the same genre.

 

[LeMask]

Adam7... I really dont like this intolerance about Muslims... I really refuse to join this delirium about head scarfs... They are just clothes...

You know what? In my country (Lala Land) women are naked in the streets, there is nothing wrong with their hair, tits, legs or intimate areas...

And I'm sick and tired of your finish Islamists always asking women to wear clothes to hide their bodies... They have to hide their chest area, and their legs and wear panties that imprison them and hide their bodies.

You should be ashamed and I wish the Americans come to liberate the women in your country by dropping atomic bombs...

Joking, but do you see what I'm saying?

If Muslim women want to hide their hair, it's their own problem, and unless you are a nudist against textiles (how they call people wearing clothes), then you have nothing to say about Muslim women and scarfs...

You have a red line too. In my country they jail people if they are naked in the streets. The red line is here, the Muslims draw it some place and we draw it next to it but closer to the "fully naked" part of the spectrum... That's it.

 

[Yossarian]

Hence all the crisis in Chechnya can be solved by a simple wardrobe change?

 

[LeMask]

Islamophobia can blind very easily mate...

We are so scared of the Muslims...

 

[Yossarian]

I'm not, I embrace the idea of working with Muslims, there are Christian extremists to, they have killed here is America to, I hate them bastards as well, I don't discriminate my friend. Religion has nothing to do with that aspect.

Religion comes into play when that is the motivator behind an aggressive campaign of violence, you absolutely have to understand your enemy. Even sometimes they have the same faith as you, but use it in a totally differently way. That said, I don't fear a single everyday Muslim, and don't see one and automatically judge them as a terrorist, sorry buddy, but you will get no fuel from me.

Lastly, I agree with Le Mask with some of the things he has stated, yes the original idea that the Chechen's told the world was a good one understandably, but the way of going about it on both sides was handled poorly.

And lastly, once again, I support Russian occupation of Chechnya 110%. Yea, it may be brutal at times, but for the security of the region if Russia keeps the occupation in the right direction, will eliminate the presence of a safe haven for criminals, human rights violations, human trafficking, and terror and militant extremist, and a place for them to secure weapons and funding."

When it comes to security anywhere, whatever makes you happy from a thousand miles away be damned, lock that place down and keep it from spreading into other areas, thats the sole reason I support Russia there, and hope they continue to do the same until some sense of stability has returned there.

 

[Prapor]

Well, they didnt send care bears to liberate Tchetchenia with hugs and kisses...

They sent men to do the job. War crimes happened, murders, torture, rapes... And honestly, I dont trust Russia's military...

Maybe I'm full of prejudice, may god, the pope, buddhah, Karma, Allah, jesus or the holy flying spaghetti monster forgive me if I'm wrong... But I'm mad like hell since all the rapes that happened in east Germany in WWII...

First, 'rapes in Germany'? What about Twenty million murdered in Russia by Germans? They were the bad guys, not us.

Second, war crimes in Chechnya were on both sides. They chose to engage in terrorism. They murdered Russian and Ossetian children in Beslan. And, in return, of course, Ossetians, Cossacks, Russian nationalists in North Ossetia and elsewhere murdered many innocent Chechens and Ingush, true. As I said, it was on both sides.

But they started it, not us. The terror, I mean.

This is what they did:

 

[LeMask]

It's not a soccer match buddy, I never said that I chose to support the germans.
I said I was pissed at the USSR for all these abuses on civilians.
rapists are always bad guys...

It makes you wish they had killed each others to the last, Nazi murderers and soviets rapists...

 

[George]

Latest fights

 

[Shmack]

Meaning autocrazy/military/police state rule...

In this case clan rule.

For sure.

And they don't have a reason for that feeling?

Did i say that?

Most of them? Who took the poll? I can assure you that I have different information.

All right if you have different information, but it doesn't matter if it's a majority or minority. Even if one single girl among thousands is forced to wear it, it is a crime. Of course, in independent Chechnya all girls would have their right to wear what they want.

Yes, that would probably have been the consequence. But would that have been a bad thing? Unless you are an imperialist...

Would that have been a bad thing eh? Oh, i see. If trying to keep a country in one piece means to be an imperialist, yes, i am a notorious imperialist.

This reminds me of the old joke. In Russia a Chechen is equated to terrorist. This is a fact. Not that a Chechen is a terrorist, but that Russians perceive all Chechens as terrorists. Enough for background.

The joke:
On an domestic flight in Russia the blond female Russian flight attendant caught sight of a dark little boy with beautifull locks. First she asked how old he was. "Five years" he proudly answered. Then she asked what nationality he was. He proudly answered "Chechen". Horrified she toook a step back, lifted her hand against her mouth and uttered: " Already at that age!"

You information is in the same genre.

Your perception of interethnic relations in Russia is as weird as is your humour, sir. I guess i won't be able to persuade you from thinking that i hate all Chechens or muslims and wish to wipe them out from Russia. So i'll just save your time and won't reply.

 

[Prapor]

Your perception of interethnic relations in Russia is as weird as is your humour, sir. I guess i won't be able to persuade you from thinking that i hate all Chechens or muslims and wish to wipe them out from Russia. So i'll just save your time and won't reply.

There is no racism in Russia? No skinheads? No 'churki go home'? Really?

 

[Prapor]

It's not a soccer match buddy, I never said that I chose to support the germans.
I said I was pissed at the USSR for all these abuses on civilians.
rapists are always bad guys...

It makes you wish they had killed each others to the last, Nazi murderers and soviets rapists...

All war criminals are bad, I agree.

 

[Shmack]

There is no racism in Russia? No skinheads? No 'churki go home'? Really?

There is racism, skinheads and go home stuff, but don't mix up individual cases of eloignement with government-pandered histeria as Adam imagines it.

 

[Yossarian]

Prejudice is universal everywhere friend, it even exists where I live on this tiny rock hurdling through space we call home.