Can A Good Muslim Be A Good American ? - Page 5




 
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Can A Good Muslim Be A Good American ?
 
October 25th, 2006  
Prince
 
 
Can A Good Muslim Be A Good American ?
are you saying that every single muslim is bad?
that would be like saying all black people do drugs....or all white people are members of the kkk
October 25th, 2006  
Donkey
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince
i know you'll probebly roll your eyes at what im about to say, but i'll say it anyway the same as its been said before. there are two kinds of muslims, the peaceful ordinary muslim, and the extreemist. the extreemist only arived recently compared to the hundreds (thousands?) of years of islam without extreemism, think back to the crusades..the greatest military ruler of all saladin i think his name was...he allowed christians to pilgrimage to jerulseum and some even stayed in the city in peace.

i know a few muslims myself and they are ordinary extreemly nice people. i even dated a muslim girl at one time. my point is,dont steriotype people. there'll allways be thorns in among every kind of people but dont make the others suffer because of it.

as far as my study of marxism goes C/1Lt Henderson, i believe that in an "ideal" world it would work. but the world we live in? not a chance.
Stereotypes happen for a reason, there is good and bad stereotypes. I mean the fundamental basis of human memory is stereotyping, deals with how our brain chunks things...What I am getting at is the whole don’t stereotype people idea is impossible, I did a presentation on stereotyping in my Psych 101 elective...but that is a whole other topic...

When it relates to being good people sure people can be good, but if you where to follow the Qu'ran all non-Muslims are to be looked down upon as inferior. Funny how a Muslim man can wed a non-Muslim woman but a Muslim woman can only wed another Muslim man...


Now I'm not saying that I object to their religion, I just don’t like being called inferior because I don’t believe in their fairy tale...
October 26th, 2006  
WarMachine
 
 
Good thing i found that information in a widely used college and high school world history textbook that is fully available online.

Policy toward
Conquered Peoples

"This policy contributed to high morale among Arab conquerors, but it caused severe
discontent among the scores of ethnic and religious groups embraced by the
Umayyad empire. Apart from Muslims the empire included Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians,
and Buddhists. Apart from Arabs and bedouin, it included Indians, Persians,
Mesopotamians, Greeks, Egyptians, and nomadic Berbers in north Africa. The Arabs
mostly allowed conquered peoples to observe their own religions—particularly Christians
and Jews—but they levied a special head tax, called the jizya, on those who did
not convert to Islam.
Even those who converted did not enjoy access to wealth and
positions of authority, which the Umayyads reserved almost exclusively for members of
the Arab military aristocracy. These policies caused deep resentment among conquered
peoples and led to restiveness against Umayyad rule."

pg 356 ch.14 the exspansion of islam in Traditions and Encounters

1.4 megabyte pdf here
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/site...57549_ch14.pdf

Basically the religion wasn't the problem, it was the ethnocentrism of the early conquerors that contributed to problems, ethnocentrism that you can find in any ruling class from the egyptians to european imperialsists.
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Can A Good Muslim Be A Good American ?
October 26th, 2006  
Senior Chief
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince
are you saying that every single muslim is bad?
that would be like saying all black people do drugs....or all white people are members of the kkk
Generalizing those in a religion that demands that you kill infidels and what you have said above is ludicrious.

There is a common thread among all muslims due to their religion. There is not a common thread among the African Americans in this country due to their diversity, the same goes for the Caucasian Americans that are even more diverse than the African Americans.

At some point in time you will need to realize that your rants cannot be defended. I suggest that you hang up your keyboard until you get a little maturity into you.
October 26th, 2006  
bulldogg
 
 

Quote:
In the name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate.

This is a letter to the servant of God Umar [ibn al-Khattab], Commander of the Faithful, from the Christians of such-and-such a city. When you came against us, we asked you for safe-conduct (aman) for ourselves, our descendants, our property, and the people of our community, and we undertook the following obligations toward you:

* We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells; nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
* We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers.
* We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.
* We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy, nor hide him from the Muslims.
* We shall not teach the Qur'an to our children.
* We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it.
* We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.
* We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.
* We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair.
* We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas (patronyms).
* We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our persons.
* We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.
* We shall not sell fermented drinks.
* We shall clip the fronts of our heads.
* We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the zunar round our waists.
* We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims.
* We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead. We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets.
* We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.
* We shall not take slaves who have been allotted to Muslims.
* We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.
* (When I brought the letter to Umar, may God be pleased with him, he added, "We shall not strike a Muslim.")

We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct. If we in any way violate these undertakings for which we ourselves stand surety, we forfeit our covenant [dhimma], and we become liable to the penalties for contumacy and sedition.
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main//..._tolerance.htm

If this is tolerance you can shove it up your fourth point of contact and prepare for a nasty fight because my spine doesn't bend that far. I call it slavery.

Quote:
1. Muslims believe that they have the right to compel people to accept Islam because it is the truth.

2. Muslims believe that Mohammad was given a divine command to fight against people, not in self defence or for economical or political reasons, but because people do not worship the one Mohammad worshipped.

3. The above scholar had no value for the human free will. To him, forcing Islam on people is justified if later on they will become Muslims. It is not an exaggeration then to say that the sword is Allah's final word.
http://debate.domini.org/newton/tolerance.html

Quote:
Most Muslims are good-hearted, peace-loving people, just as are most Christians and Jews. A small minority of Muslims are vicious fanatics. But then the Christian ethos has spawned its share of hideous killers, among them the terrorist Timothy McVeigh, and this tells us nothing about the typical Christian.” The obviously false analogy in the last sentence — McVeigh didn't kill with the sanction of Christian theology or belief, which has no doctrine remotely close to jihad, and millions of Christians didn't dance in the streets after the bombing in Oklahoma City — could stand as a textbook example of this logical fallacy.
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles...ton080605.html

Quote:
The 58 essays in the current book attack root and branch the widespread Orwellian myth, recently given cinematic sanction in Kingdom of Heaven, that Islamic societies have been historically more tolerant and friendly to minorities than has been Western culture.
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles...ton080605.html

Quote:
the jihadists know what their religion teaches about non-Muslims: they are categorically inferior infidels, particularly the “People of the Book,” Jews and Christians, “renegades who have rejected this final revelation [of Muhammad] out of corruption and malice and who have exchanged truth for falsehood.” They are accursed, and as such, it is the duty of every Muslim “to fight them,” in the words of the Qur'an, “until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.” In a later verse this injunction is specifically directed against Jews and Christians: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [a special tax on non-Muslims] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles...ton080605.html

Quote:
the Herculean efforts of David G. Littman over the years to force the United Nations to acknowledge the abuse of non-Muslims' human rights in Islamic nations should be more widely known and acknowledged.
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles...ton080605.html

Quote:
the “covenant” by which Muslims allowed the dhimmi to keep their lives could be revoked at any time, whereupon the dhimmi could be justly plundered and slaughtered.
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles...ton080605.html
Quote:
Muslims play with words. They condemn terrorism but can’t condemn Jihad. The same Muslims who deny Islam’s involvement in 9/11 and say it was the work of the CIA and the Jews and that “Muslims would never do such thing”, delight of the carnage and say America had it coming and that the Muslims have been oppressed and now they are rightfully retaliating. I had conversation with Muslims who expressed these diametrically opposing views, i.e. "Muslims won't do such thing" and "America deserved it" in two consecutive sentences.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50318.htm

Glorifying and excusing Islam as being "not so bad" back in its infancy is tantamount to declaring the Jim Crow laws of the southern American states as being a good and noble condition and that blacks should have felt safe and priviliged that they were not being executed. To make this claim a person would have to be extremely disingenuous or severly ignorant.

Slavery and living your life according to the code of conditions the dhimmi were forced to accept is NOT tolerance.

You kids best pull your head out and begin to think for yourselves. Quit blindly swallowing all the lies and half-truths your teachers, professors and media are feeding you. Read from primary sources and THINK.
October 26th, 2006  
fingolfin361
 
talking about jaziya, i remember being taught in school that when Jaziya was levied under the Mughals, it actually was a kind of a balance, as muslims were obliged to pay some special taxes as well (supposedly to go towards the upkeep of Mosques or some such thing.

going by the original article posted, i would say that if one defines a "good" muslim as an extremely staunch believer subscribing to a more aggressive and orthodox view, well then i guess the he cant be a "good" citizen of many countries, is a good citizen is defined as one who embodies every constitutional ideal, and holds beliefs predominant amongst the majority population.

but then again, articles like this just kinda leave me with a bad taste, just because they increase fear/hate. i mean honestly how many non-Muslims embody all the various national ideals, and who is to decide what kind of lifestyle is more appropriate for the peple of a nation. but that doesnt take away from the validity of the article, when taken in itself.

of course, if this article is an excuse to try and imply that muslims in general are bad etc etc (not that i am saying it is), then i would be very disgusted.
October 26th, 2006  
Prince
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senior Chief
Generalizing those in a religion that demands that you kill infidels and what you have said above is ludicrious.

There is a common thread among all muslims due to their religion. There is not a common thread among the African Americans in this country due to their diversity, the same goes for the Caucasian Americans that are even more diverse than the African Americans.

At some point in time you will need to realize that your rants cannot be defended. I suggest that you hang up your keyboard until you get a little maturity into you.

i have a better idea...how about i come back in a day or two's time with at least 3 links to prove my case?
you obviously have never actualy sat down and talked with a muslim because you are so ignorant that you only see your own view and no one elses. now that truely is imature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey
Stereotypes happen for a reason, there is good and bad stereotypes. I mean the fundamental basis of human memory is stereotyping, deals with how our brain chunks things...What I am getting at is the whole don’t stereotype people idea is impossible, I did a presentation on stereotyping in my Psych 101 elective...but that is a whole other topic...

When it relates to being good people sure people can be good, but if you where to follow the Qu'ran all non-Muslims are to be looked down upon as inferior. Funny how a Muslim man can wed a non-Muslim woman but a Muslim woman can only wed another Muslim man...


Now I'm not saying that I object to their religion, I just don’t like being called inferior because I don’t believe in their fairy tale...
yeah it may well teach that other people in other religions are inferier...but not all muslims follow that.
think in the bible "thou shall not kill" yet how many millions upon millions of christians have killed others through the years??
just because its in a holy book does not mean it is followed by all the people in that religion.

1st link i have to prove my case : http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/uia...slam.htm#DITOB

oh and there'll be alot more to come. i am passionate about this topic so it'll end in either this thread closing or you accepting you are wrong.
October 26th, 2006  
Senior Chief
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince
i have a better idea...how about i come back in a day or two's time with at least 3 links to prove my case?
you obviously have never actualy sat down and talked with a muslim because you are so ignorant that you only see your own view and no one elses. now that truely is imature.
I see, the muslims I've worked with over the years don't have a grasp on what they believe? The muslims I've listened to for those years all have the same story, they wouldn't kill anyone, but their religion tells them that they must. My friends, the muslims, celebrated the destruction of the WTC in 2001.

You are bordering on being reported for rules violations.

Your passion for the muslims must mean that you have a tendency to convert or already have.

The basis of their religion is the crux of this conversation, one of their charges is to kill infidels and if you are not a muslim you are an infidel, maybe that is why you are so bold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince
1st link i have to prove my case : http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/uia...slam.htm#DITOB

oh and there'll be alot more to come. i am passionate about this topic so it'll end in either this thread closing or you accepting you are wrong.
You are fighting a losing battle. I've worked with muslims. I've studied unbiased documents about the religioin, and I've worked in an anti-terrorism theatre for a period of time. You are still attempting to generalize muslims as kind and meek, that could not be further from the truth.

As for your comments to Donkey, judge not lest ye be judged!
October 26th, 2006  
LIBERTY
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince
i have a better idea...how about i come back in a day or two's time with at least 3 links to prove my case?
you obviously have never actualy sat down and talked with a muslim because you are so ignorant that you only see your own view and no one elses. now that truely is imature.
Okay dude you wont last long here if you keep up with that attitude. And also keep in mind that you are argueing with people thats been in the military most of their lives, and seen more sh*t in a week than you have all your life. Also it is forum rules to provide a link to the information you provide.
October 26th, 2006  
Prince
 
 

Topic: Can A Good Muslim Be A Good American ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Senior Chief
I see, the muslims I've worked with over the years don't have a grasp on what they believe? The muslims I've listened to for those years all have the same story, they wouldn't kill anyone, but their religion tells them that they must. My friends, the muslims, celebrated the destruction of the WTC in 2001.
You are bordering on being reported for rules violations.
Your passion for the muslims must mean that you have a tendency to convert or already have.
The basis of their religion is the crux of this conversation, one of their charges is to kill infidels and if you are not a muslim you are an infidel, maybe that is why you are so bold.
You are fighting a losing battle. I've worked with muslims. I've studied unbiased documents about the religioin, and I've worked in an anti-terrorism theatre for a period of time. You are still attempting to generalize muslims as kind and meek, that could not be further from the truth.
As for your comments to Donkey, judge not lest ye be judged!
1stly i did not say your muslim friends dont have a grasp for what they believe, i am merely saying that not all muslims hate america and want to kill you. you said yourself "they wouldnt kill anyone" so your practicaly agreeing with me that they are not all killers.
what rules violations have i bordered on? debating a topic that i feel strongly for? if thats againced the rules then i may as well quit the forum now because i havent even started.
as far as myself converting... that is quite imposible due to the fact i am bisexual.
i am not trying to generalise muslims. i am trying to point out thatnot all of them are bad people. i do admit i am fighting a losing battle but i dont realy care if the odds are 100-1 because i know i am right.

you say the koran teaches to kill...what about all the accounts in the bible where the jews entered palastine and killed all the people in the area, that can hardly be a peace loving people who would follow such things to do that? anyway not all of the things you believe that are in the koran are actualy in there. alot of the things said are from the hadith which was written 200years after the koran. it contradicts the koran in many places. link: http://www.submission.org/hadith/quran.html

i notice none of you have commented on my comparisen of the bibles teachings and what christians have done?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIBERTY
Okay dude you wont last long here if you keep up with that attitude. And also keep in mind that you are argueing with people thats been in the military most of their lives, and seen more sh*t in a week than you have all your life. Also it is forum rules to provide a link to the information you provide.
well i dont like some of the things people are saying on here do i? so i feel i should express my opinion on the matter.
i know im arguing againced people older, wiser and more experianced than myself. that was one of the reasons why i joined this forum in the 1st place.
its pretty hard to provide alink to a book you readin the libery 6 months ago though dont you think?
 


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