Can A Good Muslim Be A Good American ? - Page 2

Can A Good Muslim Be A Good American ?
September 21st, 2006  
Can A Good Muslim Be A Good American ?
Originally Posted by The Cooler King
Yeath there is Darwin's theory, and Grey's theory, etc, etc but there is one problem: You can't make something out of nothing. How are you going to make a Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwich if you don't have peanut butter, jelly or bread? Let's say we evolved, where did the organism that we evolved from come from? What if we were created by Aliens, where did the aliens come from then? That's all reasoning and logic and that is what I base my religious beliefs on.

Again you prove my point and one word sums all of our discussion up: FAITH.

Faith in the Quran or the Bible or whatever religion that man has documented. I can ask you the reverse of the questions you pose to me: How do we know that God is not a creation of human beings? Think about that for more than a few moments and you will find the paradox I am sure.
September 21st, 2006  
The Cooler King
Are you saying that absolutely no logic goes into a decision of whether or not to believe in God? Now I'm not saying that it's not faith and I'm not saying it's all faith either. But there is some logic involved in the equation.
September 21st, 2006  
Originally Posted by The Cooler King
Are you saying that absolutely no logic goes into a decision of whether or not to believe in God? Now I'm not saying that it's not faith and I'm not saying it's all faith either. But there is some logic involved in the equation.

Nothing about human emotions is logical in the sense that one or more persons will feel the same exact way about the same exact thing no matter who they are or what it is that happens. Is it logical for one person to feel pity for a dog suffering from cold and hunger and another to feel indifferent? Is it logical for one person to feel no remorse for hitting someone while another person fels guilt for years to come?

Accepted definitions of Logic:
1.the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
2.a particular method of reasoning or argumentation
3.the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study. 4.reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions
5.convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness

Logic can be used to certify that there is a God if you use faith and texts written by man as it's basis and go on the assumption that there is a God. But other than books written and rewritten by man there is no solid evidence or proof of fact that a God exists. We have to take it on faith that he or she does.

I am not an Athiest. I am Agnostic at best and indifferent at worst. I want to clarify this so that you don't presume from the discussion that I am anti-religion or Athiest.

Accepted definitions of Faith:
1.confidence or trust in a person or thing
2.belief that is not based on proof
3.belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion
4.belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.
5.a system of religious belief
6.the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.
7.the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance,
8.Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

Notice they all have a basis in believing in the intangible. Nothing is certain. It is all based on human emotion and feelings for the intangibles.

Thus we go back to the statement I made that "religion has no basis in logic."

My argument stands thusly:
Religion is based upon human emotions which is not founded from logical thought but rather a belief that something exists. Even if no one (other than the claims made by the writers of the various religious texts) has any kind of solid evidence to refute or confirm.

Therefore it stands to reason that, i.e. it is logical, to presume that religion has no basis in logic.

Perhaps Logic isn't the best word to use. But it is the word I chose. If there is a better word or phrase to use to describe what I am trying to say let me know. I looked in the thesaurus and didn't find one that really fit.
Can A Good Muslim Be A Good American ?
September 21st, 2006  
I was under the impression that US Muslims have a very small extremist section and that the vast majority are proud to be American. It's far different in the UK for example. We have a growing 'fifth column' movement in this country that doesn't appear to have an equivalent in the US. For example, all the examples of recent UK Islamic terrorism were carried out by UK born Muslims.

Or am I incorrect?
September 22nd, 2006  
When your religious text and religious leaders are calling for the destruction of the country to which you claim loyalty you must make a choice. You cannot do both. One cannot be a "good muslim" and a "good American/Brit/Frenchman/Japanese/Aussie".
September 22nd, 2006  
Round them up and send them to Manzanar eh? Then we can bow our heads in shame for the next few decades over a stupid decision which at this point some people might seriously contemplate.

Rather than looking at muslims as being from islam, consider which countries they emigrated from and what their lives were like there compared to america. Countries like pakistan, algeria, egypt, iran, etc. They probably like it here better since it's a more developed and better organized country than their homelands and most people wouldn't have grudges towards that, why would they. I bet you can count on your fingers and toes the number of muslims in this country that would have serious contemplations about committing terrorism. You can then take that number and multiply it by 100 and that's about how many christians would do the same. Not that these numbers have any fact backing them, but given the population statistics, they sound about right.
September 22nd, 2006  
Bowing a head in shames beats having it cut off. You feel guilty while I feel alive. Go flagelate yourself.
September 22nd, 2006  
I think the first important thing to realize is the results of a poll conducted in the UK of young Muslim men who were born in the UK and not overseas. They were not loyal to their native country but rather the countries in which their families immigrated from (Pakistan, Iraq, Iran etc). Now, I think there is a group of Muslims that are loyal to the United States BUT will you find the loyalists in a NYC protest where written on a wall is: "America will be destroyed" or the ones that actively support terrorism and Jihadist ideas? Of course not.
October 16th, 2006  
Senior Chief
Originally Posted by tomtom22
Can a good Muslim be a good American? This was sent as a question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.
Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)
Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).
Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.
Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.
Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.
Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).
Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.
Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic. Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.
Therefore after much study and deliberation.... perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish.... it's still the truth. If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future. The religious war is bigger than we know or understand.
I don't know very many muslims but they all seem to have the same distaste for America. What I don't understand is they seem to hate America except when they can live here and make money here. Apparently living in a house with no sand blowing on a daily basis must be better than with the sand.

I don't know if we should maintain relations with any muslim country, it's only going to bite us in the arse.
October 16th, 2006  
I do not know much on the subject of Islam so my opinion is rather neutral. From what I read of Tom Tom's post it seems like a closed-minded, intolerant, and dangerous religion.But if you have not read the Quran then you souldnt say what Islam is or isnt. Though not every Muslims a fanatic/extremeist. Hell you even get the nut jobs like the Branch Davidians that believe pretty much the same thing as the Islamic fanatics, but from a christian point of view.

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