Bush tells Iraqis to get their crap together

PJ24

PJ24

Active member
Bush Tells Iraqis to Govern Now

"I want the Iraqi people to hear I've got great confidence in their capacity to self-govern," Bush said. "I also want the Iraqi people to hear - it's about time you get a unity government going."
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I like the message, but I think we'd fair better with the message if we weren't talking about keeping troops in the country for several more years at the same time.

The argument about national security seems weak to me, the middle east is already a hot bed of terrorist activities, and by our standards, there are very few countries we don't consider "radical" in the region.
I don't necessarily believe we should withdraw our forces from Iraq altogether right now. That said, I do think withdrawing troops from the cities and into the outer Northern, Southern and Eastern regions would be a good idea. This would force the IPs, military and admin to actually govern. The only time we need to go back in would be if the the government was at risk of collapse, or if outsiders (terrorists) were causing disruptions. This would also alow us to focus on the outsiders coming in with their little toys.

The Shias don't want unity, they want revenge against the Sunnis. The Sunnis aren't going to pull back and stop attacking because they don't see any reforms that guarantee their safety. And we are caught in the middle of it all, we're (the military) the teacher breaking up school yard fights.

We need to start looking at the current situation with fresh eyes, step back and really take a hard look because what we are doing isn't working. Things aren't better or worse, they're pretty much stagnant.
 
Divide and rule. Its the only philosophy of government I can think of for a situation like you have in Iraq. Every country with similar clashes of culture that has a stable government uses this technique. If they can't learn to get along, you play them off each other and establish a balance that way. Sukarno's leadership of Indonesia and Suharto's subsequent regime are prime examples of the technique. Problem is, it is very "un-american" so it wouldn't fly when it gets its trial by media back home.
 
A bit like the Reagan admin...Draw the troops out of Vietnam gradually and then see if the Iraqiis can defend themselves...Of course in Vietnam it didnt work too well...What was it, 5 months after we pulled out completely? As to your teacher analogy, what we need to do is get on the damned walkie-talkie and get some backup teachers...Like in Chief Bones' speech, get those people on list 1 to help out...one teacher cant break up a big fight...he needs help...
 
C/2Lt Henderson said:
A bit like the Reagan admin...Draw the troops out of Vietnam gradually and then see if the Iraqiis can defend themselves...Of course in Vietnam it didnt work too well...What was it, 5 months after we pulled out completely?
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History has been re-written.

Hee hee hee.
:)
 
Reagan didn't pull troops out of Vietnam bruv. ;)

And although I know what you meant the second half is funny too... I am curious what Iraqis are doing in Vietnam.
:)
 
D*OH! I dunno what the heck I was typing just then...NIXON!!! sorry fellas...lol...and again sorry for that Iraqii thing...ITS LATE! LEAVE ME ALONE!lol...I JUST TOOK MY LUNESTA FOR THE NIGHT SO IM TIRED!
 
Huh...... what going on guys? I am dumbfounded at what I am reading. The way I see your metaphor is that the teacher gave the kids all the chance they needed to go at eachother. After that done he's going in for a cup of coffee.
Three years ago things were going to be set straight. With or without the rest of the world.... Anybody who said that this wasn't the best way to go about it was unpatriottic (for US citizens) or a unloyal coward (the rest). Suddenly you can't seem to get a democracy working overnight and it's time to leave. Bush started the storm of violence and while it is not even close to an end he tells the others to take over and set things straight. What is he thinking..... if he is thinking at all.
Leaving is not only morally wrong, it is also the act of spoiled kid that can't seem to get his expensive toy going and casts it aside and starts looking for a new one.
 
Ted said:
Huh...... what going on guys? I am dumbfounded at what I am reading. The way I see your metaphor is that the teacher gave the kids all the chance they needed to go at eachother. After that done he's going in for a cup of coffee.
Three years ago things were going to be set straight. With or without the rest of the world.... Anybody who said that this wasn't the best way to go about it was unpatriottic (for US citizens) or a unloyal coward (the rest). Suddenly you can't seem to get a democracy working overnight and it's time to leave. Bush started the storm of violence and while it is not even close to an end he tells the others to take over and set things straight. What is he thinking..... if he is thinking at all.
Leaving is not only morally wrong, it is also the act of spoiled kid that can't seem to get his expensive toy going and casts it aside and starts looking for a new one.
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It has been approximately 2 years (or longer) that they have been hashing out a government. The opposing factions at each other's throats is what is keeping the government from being brought into being fully.

The opposing factions can not work together as they have differing ideals and ideas that they feel should be met before all others. I mean how long does it take to write/draft a constitution? They can not even seem to agree on some of the basics, let alone ratify or make any amendments to it.

Of course I am not well informed so I may be way out of bounds here.
 
Not that this has anything at all to do with the current topic but I would like to say to Marinerhodes that the United States Constitutional Convetion acctually had to conviene twice before one man, the representative from Connecticut, could come up with a well-thought out compromise. as to agreeing on the basics...Of course they are going to have disagreements, they have been fighting for longer than the United States has been in existence...its going to take some time to let down guard and reach the negotiation tables. I realize that, like Marinerhodes, I am not very well-informed either but I still do have those facts...To err is human..you know...
 
C/2Lt Henderson said:
Not that this has anything at all to do with the current topic but I would like to say to Marinerhodes that the United States Constitutional Convetion acctually had to conviene twice before one man, the representative from Connecticut, could come up with a well-thought out compromise. as to agreeing on the basics...Of course they are going to have disagreements, they have been fighting for longer than the United States has been in existence...its going to take some time to let down guard and reach the negotiation tables. I realize that, like Marinerhodes, I am not very well-informed either but I still do have those facts...To err is human..you know...
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These people (some factions) want the foreign forces out of their country. The foreign forces will not leave until they have a viable constitution. If the country does not have a viable constitution and foreign forces leave then there will be widespread hate and discontent and killing and rampaging etc. The United States will be blamed for pulling out too early.

So at this point in time I see it as a catch 22.
 
Which is a bunch of crap because most of the other major world powers didnt have the balls to step in and do whats right for fear of looking bad politically
 
C/2Lt Henderson said:
Which is a bunch of crap because most of the other major world powers didnt have the balls to step in and do whats right for fear of looking bad politically
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That is one way of looking at it. Overhere we see it different, more in the way the US was the only nation with an urge to invade something. They picked Iraq and started invading. What do you mean by "right" anyway? Sure Saddam was evil and getting rid of him was the easiest part. Has it ever occured to you way Saddam used an iron fist to run his country? He probably knew that you'd stir up a hornets nest when you remove the central government... And face it most democracies took over half a century to reach some sort of balance. Three years is peanuts in the scale of nation-building!!
 
I really wasnt talking about the Saddam invasion. We had reason to believe that Osama Bin Laden was hiding in Iraq. We picked Iraq with reason. And I mean right by the fact that we were attacked without provocation. How is it not the right thing to fight back? We wanted to invade Iraq because 1)We had to hunt down and punish Bin Ladin. 2)We had "reason" to believe that Hussein had WMDs...I supported the War On Terror but when it transformed into the the war for President Bush's father, I stopped putting the "I Support the War" stickers on my car.Has America not reached balance for the most part? we were formally established around 200 years ago...Not quite half a century...
 
.Of course in Vietnam it didnt work too well...What was it, 5 months after we pulled out completely?
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Vietnam is too diffrent to even begin to compare it to the current situation in Iraq.
 
Ted said:
Huh...... what going on guys? I am dumbfounded at what I am reading. The way I see your metaphor is that the teacher gave the kids all the chance they needed to go at eachother. After that done he's going in for a cup of coffee.
Three years ago things were going to be set straight. With or without the rest of the world.... Anybody who said that this wasn't the best way to go about it was unpatriottic (for US citizens) or a unloyal coward (the rest). Suddenly you can't seem to get a democracy working overnight and it's time to leave. Bush started the storm of violence and while it is not even close to an end he tells the others to take over and set things straight. What is he thinking..... if he is thinking at all.
Leaving is not only morally wrong, it is also the act of spoiled kid that can't seem to get his expensive toy going and casts it aside and starts looking for a new one.
Click to expand...

Um, Bush hasn't said anything about pulling troops out right away.


And he's right, they do need to start governing themselves. At this point, the Iraqis haven't done much at all. It's time they start taking a vested interest in their country.
 
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But what did you expect PJ? With the removal of the central powers the old connections came back into play. I mean scores are evened are the country because some kid's grandfather's nephew stepdaughter said "no" to a proposal 123 years ago. These people have been fighting for generations and when that is done... well hell, they fight eachother!
Maybe some general should have read a lonely planet instead of The Art of War.
 
Ted said:
But what did you expect PJ? With the removal of the central powers the old connections came back into play. I mean scores are evened are the country because some kid's grandfather's nephew stepdaughter said "no" to a proposal 123 years ago. These people have been fighting for generations and when that is done... well hell, they fight eachother!
Maybe some general should have read a lonely planet instead of The Art of War.
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Of course they do. That doesn't mean we shouldn't expect the Iraqis (the majority) to start taking a more active role and interest in their country's welfare. Complacency is a big issue over there.

They aren't going to do anything until we leave the cities and force them to. Until then, expect to continue to see this little sporadic tit for tat attacks.
 
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