BRITAIN'S GREATEST PRIME-MINISTER?

[BritinBritain]

You know I have always considered Thatcher to be your typical thug who succeeded by simply bullying her way through parliament however to be fair she was the right man for the job when it came to the Falklands war.

The more I think about it the more I believe Spikes comments about seeing Amin in a dress probably decribe my impression of her best.

When I think of Thatcher she reminds me of Hitler, not only did they both destroy unions, they both escaped an assassination bomb plot attempt on their lives. How spooky is that?

 

[senojekips]

BritinAfrica, The very term "Thatcherism" makes progressive governments around the world wince. Her ideals were in the main, quite admirable, however she never took into account the probable long term effects, driving the unemployment rate to it's highest since 1923 even surpassing the misery of the great depression, while at the same time bringing a new class of "well off" by privatising everything and concentrating the wealth at the top.

Eventually even her supporters realised she had to go before the country degenerated into an economic basket case, with all of the money at the top, supported by an indentured labour force, whose taxes had to support an ever growing population of persons on the dole or receiving benefits to allow them to survive on their shrinking incomes. Maggie rightly tried to minimise public spending,... without realising that her own policies were creating a whole new class of unemployed and underpaid benefit recipients. In this respect her own policies led to her downfall and consequent loss of face in the eyes of the world's more progressive countries.

As described in several sources, she was a 19th century liberal.

 

[BritinBritain]

BritinAfrica, The very term "Thatcherism" makes progressive governments around the world wince. Her ideals were in the main, quite admirable, however she never took into account the probable long term effects, driving the unemployment rate to it's highest since 1923 even surpassing the misery of the great depression, while at the same time bringing a new class of "well off" by privatising everything and concentrating the wealth at the top.

I remember the unemployment queue's all to well. Imagine a father trying to explain to a child why he couldn't buy them Christmas or birthday presents. Its all very well for someone to say, "Get a job." There were no jobs.

 

[perseus]

Here is a good antidote to the Torygraph!

When Tony Blair speaks of the good things done by her administration, one should remember that there were none. None whatsoever. There is nothing disproportionate about the contempt in which she is still held by all people of conscience and integrity. It is true that there was at times some misogyny directed at her, but no matter how many people hated her more for being female, they still couldn't have hated her as much as she deserves. The only caveat I would sound when people remember the joy of her departure is that her legacy is still with us, both in the privateering policies of New Labour and in the shape of all those cringing underlings of hers still in circulation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2000/nov/25/thatcher.uk

 

[Del Boy]

Now you are talking - a lively bunch of posts, a great stirring of things.

Only one point; please could you all put up your candidates with your reasons; that would be good. We already have BritinAfrica's, Edward Heath, and The British electorate's 2008 poll.

Perseus - you forgot to put a ref. to your quote.

Keep up the good work, the American election is nearly over, so we have a gap to fill.

 

[senojekips]

I remember the unemployment queue's all to well. Imagine a father trying to explain to a child why he couldn't buy them Christmas or birthday presents. Its all very well for someone to say, "Get a job." There were no jobs.

Her most memorable legacy, and fortunately, the one that bought her unstuck.

Had she have been allowed to continue her policies would have taken the UK back to the 1800s where the wealthy ran the country and the workers "new their place" (as not much better than slave labour)

 

[Del Boy]

Well, I stood in dole queues in London in the 1960's, when I had 5 children to look out for. Harold Wilson's Labour administration was in power at the time.

The proposition that Thatcher would have taken Britain back to the 19th century does not really stand up. She had developed, through some tough remedies, a country ripe and ready for survival, from what had been the sick man of Europe ; she had turned Britain into a nation of home-owners. It could be said that she did what had to be done. The gap between the rich and the poor is much greater now, largely since 1997 when new Labour took over.

This is why the May 2008 YouGov poll points to her continued respect in the eyes of the British electorate; today she would sweep the board, according to that poll. (post 1). Polls do tend to reflect that generally.

Now, I would contend that no-one knows better than the British electorate the attitudes of the British electorate.

 

[MontyB]

William Pitt the Younger, a great Prime Minister in very turbulent times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pitt_the_Younger

I think he would have given Maggie a run for her money.

Bah he was a hack.



After much thought and I will go with Robert Walpole.
The first Prime Minister and it has been all down hill ever since.

 

[Del Boy]

Yes tactics. The warning I recieved:-

"You can't debate (with) Del boy.

He never asks questions,.. he only makes statements, which no one is permitted to debate. He is already starting his favourite ploy of insulting your intelligence, if you should answer in kind he will wait several posts then accuse you of starting the abuse.

He is well known here, don't waste your time."

Aah yes. Covert character assassination. The sure sign of a dented ego.

Look, I have no set tactics - I am completely spontaneous and completely re-active. Those who are polite always receive politeness from me.

But I am prepared to fight my corner however people want it.

Politeness is met with politeness. Rudeness and insult are met either with warnings or return of same. Offensiveness is similiarly dealt with. Friendliness is invariably met with friendliness. My point is, that if you dish it out, you must be prepared to take it. But my response is always re-active.


'Touch me not with impunity' - my Regimental motto.

 

[BritinBritain]

Bah he was a hack.



After much thought and I will go with Robert Walpole.
The first Prime Minister and it has been all down hill ever since.

lol even a Hack would have been better then Thatcher.

I missed something glaringly obvious from the Telegraphs article.

"Even one in 10 of Labour voters, for whom she was a hate figure, acknowledged her greatness, as did 75 per cent of Tory voters."

Now lets examine this closely, that means 90%of labour voters didn't acknowledge her greatness, neither did 25% of the Tory voters.

Now if we combine the two and take the overall figure of the poll.
57.5% did NOT acknowledge her greatness compared to the
42.5% who did.

Simple percentages.

So on reflection Maggie wouldn't have been voted back after all.

Her most memorable legacy, and fortunately, the one that bought her unstuck.

Had she have been allowed to continue her policies would have taken the UK back to the 1800s where the wealthy ran the country and the workers "new their place" (as not much better than slave labour)

Absolutely. Thatchers policies were all short term quick fix, and disastrous in the long term, which is so apparent today

Skilled workers left Britain in droves because of her policies, skilled workers that any country cannot afford to lose. To survive every country needs an industrial base, it needs the spanner men, the welders, the boiler makers and so on. Today sadly, Britain is lacking in many of those skills, to get back to the pre Thatcher industrial era.

 

[MontyB]

lol even a Hack would have been better then Thatcher.

I missed something glaringly obvious from the Telegraphs article.

Even one in 10 of Labour voters, for whom she was a hate figure, acknowledged her greatness, as did 75 per cent of Tory voters.

Now lets examine this closely, that means 90%of labour voters didn't acknowledge her greatness, neither did 25% of the Tory voters.

Now if we combine the two and take the overall figure of the poll.
57.5% did NOT acknowledge her greatness compared to the
42.5% who did.

Simple precentages.

So on reflection Maggie wouldn't have been voted back after all.

That is some mighty fine stat work.



I imagine she is pin up girl (and I use that VERY loosely) for the far right conservative movement but I can't imagine she has a huge support base beyond that.

She pretty much thrived off bullying her way through government and I think it is unfortunate that Britain did not have an effective opposition or trade union movement to reign her in.

 

[BritinBritain]

That is some mighty fine stat work.



I imagine she is pin up girl (and I use that VERY loosely) for the far right conservative movement but I can't imagine she has a huge support base beyond that.

She pretty much thrived off bullying her way through government and I think it is unfortunate that Britain did not have an effective opposition or trade union movement to reign her in.

I had Maggie as a pin up girl, I use to throw darts at her picture.

 

[senojekips]

I had Maggie as a pin up girl, I use to throw darts at her picture.

That could earn you a visit from the RSPCD. No self respecting dart player would chuck his arrows at something that ugly. :-D

 

[BritinBritain]

That could earn you a visit from the RSPCD. No self respecting dart player would chuck his arrows at something that ugly. :-D

LOL Well it was either throw darts at my missus, the dog or a picture of Thatcher. The missus would have thrown them back and I loved my dog. So Thatcher was the only one left lol.

 

[Del Boy]

LOL -

"Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble, fire burn and cauldron bubble."

I have a feeling of deja-vu here................I see.................


Ist witch, nodding and thinking, at least is prepared to predict; " Walpole will bear the crown!"

2nd witch, trying desperately to throw arrows and negatives only, and not even prepared to put up their own choice.

3rd witch, busy stirring the pot, head down, out of arrows and hoping no-one notices her backing for an also-ran, a no-hoper.

(Just deja-vu , I guess. So I will lead on, like McDuff.:smil: ):-


Just to remind you all of the reasons why Margaret Thatcher is held in such high esteem by the British electorate, take into account these few facts. Now come on, stop cackling and stand back from those pots; listen and learn of the big picture, which relates to greatness:-


Thatcher became Prime Minister with a mandate to reverse the UK's economic decline. Thatcher's political and economic philosophy emphasised reduced state intervention, free markets, and entrepreneurialism. The new era of economic liberalism transformed the UK into a fast-growing economy.



Among other things, she defiantly opposed the Soviet Union.



Thatcher, the former chemist, became publicly concerned with environmental issues in the late 1980s. In 1988, she made a major speech communicating the problems of global warming, ozone depletion and acid rain. Referring to her important role in the struggle against ozone depletion, Carl Sagan claimed that she demonstrated the importance in the modern world of leaders having an understanding of science.



Thatcher is credited by Ronald Reagan with persuading him that Mikhail Gorbachev was sincere in his desire to reform and liberalise the Soviet Union. The resulting thaw in East-West relations helped to end the Cold War .




She was against the British Government's plan to introduce identity cards. She is said to have remarked that ID cards were a "Germanic concept and completely alien to this country".



. ..In 1999 Thatcher was among 18 included in Gallup's List of Widely Admired People of the 20th Century, from a poll conducted of Americans. In a 2006 list compiled by New Statesman, she was voted 5th in the list of "Heroes of our time" She was also named a "Hero of Freedom" by the libertarian magazine Reason.



Even at her lowest ebb, the time of her resignation, a MORI poll found that 52% agreed with the proposition that "On balance she had been good for the country".

She was NEVER rejected by the British electorate; In 2008, they still do not (YouGov poll). (BTW - BritinAfrica's figures, re. that poll, do not add up; more nonsense.

 

[MontyB]

LOL Well it was either throw darts at my missus, the dog or a picture of Thatcher. The missus would have thrown them back and I loved my dog. So Thatcher was the only one left lol.

To a large degree Thatcher reminded me a lot of Prime Minister we had Robert Muldoon and he was notorious for ruling the country anyone that got in his way pretty much regretted it, he bullied his party and the opposition into silence.
It wasnt until a very good orator in the form of David Lange took him to task that eventually his support collapsed and he was forced into a snap election which he lost.

It seems to me that Thatchers survival was more to do with a lack of a strong opposition than her appeal to the public.

 

[Del Boy]

Here is a good antidote to the Torygraph!

How can you compare the two arguments ? The one you have put forward here is an old Guardianista column (2000) by a decidedly dodgy contributor:-

Jeremy Hardy is an English alternative comedian, and a poor one at that. He is known for his socialist politics. In ‘just a minute’ programme in 2000 he was boo-ed and was reprimanded by the Liberal MP , Clement Freud. He never appeared on that show again.
He used to write a regular column for The Guardian, a Guardianista but was fired, for not including enough jokes, but allegedly also because he used it to express his support for the Socialist Alliance. So his rant was to be expected.


On the other hand, The Telegraph article concerns the YouGov poll of May this year, 2008, and I have also referred to the Mori poll regarding the time of Maggie's resignation.

There is no credibility for yours compared with that, you must agree.

 

[senojekips]

It seems to me that Thatchers survival was more to do with a lack of a strong opposition than her appeal to the public.

I can't possibly see how she had any appeal to the public, other than in the case of the Falklands war, and it was only happenstance that the Argies tried it on, in her time in office. The war raised her profile enormously, but when you think of it , she only had two choices, either to let the Argies have the Falklands, or to do as she did, her decision was hardly mind blowing stuff. It was fortunate that this came along when the people so badly needed something to divert their attention from the fact that they were all facing a very grim future. Anything (even a war) was better than what they could see laying ahead of them.

Had this war have never occurred, I think Maggie would have been out on her duff much sooner, as her policies would have effectively turned Britain into another third world country with masses of working poor struggling to support a country run by, and for the benefit of the wealthy.

I would hesitate to name "The Best", I am not all that big on the those PMs in the more distant past, but there would have to be be many who were "better". Better leaders, better thinkers, better orators, better liked,.... Pitt the younger, Disraeli, Clement Attlee, Winnie, Tony Blair.

In those four classifications above Maggie was at best dismal. In fact it leaves me struggling to think of a single field where she excelled (other than her personal unpopularity) her personallity alone would have made it hard for her to be a contender.

If Maggie was to be included in the top five, or possibly ten, of Britain's best, it says very little for the quality of the remainder.

 

[Del Boy]

It seems to me that Thatchers survival was more to do with a lack of a strong opposition than her appeal to the public.

The only thing is that, as you can see, the YouGov Poll was in 2008, demonstrating her lasting appeal. I can assure you that all recent polls here covering the 20th century reflect the same. Winnie first, Maggie 2nd, Blair often nowhere, Attlee, as you would expect, always highly respected, with his introduction of the welfare state, and Harold Wilson was an efficient bureaucrat and manoeuvrer. The biggest raspberry goes to Heath.

These polls constantly put Winnie 1 and Maggie 2 for that period, but the youGov one puts Maggie first and Winnie 2nd, because it covers the post-war only and Churchill's involvement in that was not a happy one.

My own personal favourites would have included those you guys have mentioned, plus Palmerston, the original John Bull, the personification of the Brit.

The image you hold of life here in the eighties here just wasn't as you describe. we had been heading downwards by 1979, and Maggie wrought the recovery. The working man's cause was rising, home-ownership was rising fast, wages were rising. You also misunderstand Maggie's standing, then and now . Love her or hate her, and I am in neither camp, she is a most respected politician. She was trusted, I believe.You may find that strange, but nevertheless it is true. At the time she retired, 52% thought she had been good for Britain. Life is tougher here now, and the gap between the rich and the poor is far greater. After 11 years of new Labour, we still have theCommunity Tax, now known as The Council Tax, it has vastly multiplied, grows each year and falls heavily upon the poorest, pensioners on low fixed incomes, now in pensioner poverty.

As far as great orators are concerned, I would say, Palmerston, Churchill, Bevan, Powell, and Wm. Haig. The last two did not make PM.

The most outstandingly brilliant British politician - Enoch Powell, who also did not make it.

But for greatest PMs, our electorate constantly put up Churchill and Thatcher, and yes, it has a lot to do with percieved character and political personality.

Right, I think that is probably more than enough from me on this thread, so I will politely step aside. I thank you!

 

[BritinBritain]

Had this war have never occurred, I think Maggie would have been out on her duff much sooner, as her policies would have effectively turned Britain into another third world country with masses of working poor struggling to support a country run by, and for the benefit of the wealthy.

Absolutely, her record and her policies clearly shows this. She has always looked down on the working man.

In those four classifications above Maggie was at best dismal. In fact it leaves me struggling to think of a single field where she excelled (other than her personal unpopularity) her personallity alone would have made it hard for her to be a contender.

She had to be the most arrogant, obnoxious and uncaring PM in British history. “Profit before people”

If Maggie was to be included in the top five, or possibly ten, of Britain's best, it says very little for the quality of the remainder.

Sadly this is very true, with the only exception being Churchill. He was the right man at the right time without a doubt.

I agree with Spike totally, If it hadn't been for the Falklands war, she would have been tossed out on her backside long before she was. The insidious fact remains, she used mens lives (Both British and Argentine) to further her political career by calling an early election. She used the public hysteria and flag waving of the Falklands victory to her full advantage, she didn't give a toss about the men who were killed or maimed.

I went for a pint after the surrender of the Argentines. I couldnt beleive what I was hearing. One idiot was boasting "We beating the Argies." I asked, "Who's WE? Were you there getting shot at, shelled and under air attack?"

He replied "Well ok, but Maggie beat the Argies." At this I nearly had a heart attack, I exploded, "She didnt win the bloody war, British troops won the war with their blood." I had to walk out I was so furious.