Bows




 
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July 24th, 2004  
dsj
 

Topic: Bows


After the talks about the turkish and asian bows being way superior to the european bows I still think it's absurd. Here are my points. First, the asian bows are smaller, had a much lower draweight and are composite. Draweight determines the maximum range of the arrow, the higher the draweight the longer the range. The asian bows are said to have more elasiticity than the european bows then it should have a higher draweight. a composite bow is not really good for shooting. In europe, composite bows were made as a poor substitute when there wasn't enough of the preferred wood. And as for furnitures, the wooden boards that makes up the furniture is better if it was not flued together from many pieces or layers. One solid piece is the best. When shooting devices are smaller they are logically weaker and shorter ranged. So these are my first reasons why the composite bows are worse than self bows. Second, the said 937.13 yards achieved by the small composite bows is impossible. That would outrange the muskets in the days of the british empire. The said effective range of over 320 meters of the mongol archers is absurd. The Modern M16 have an effective range of 300 meters! this is asian propaganda. At 320 meters you can't even see your target.
July 24th, 2004  
Bootboy82
 
Quote:
At 320 meters you can't even see your target
Sorry, but that is not correct. You can see a single man from a distance up to 700 meters and smaller groups of people from a distance up to 1.5 kilometers.
July 24th, 2004  
dsj
 
I meant large enough to aim and shoot.
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July 24th, 2004  
dsj
 
Plus, if those recurve bows are soo good why didn't it alter the course of main battles? The longbow shocked the world during the hundred years war and became so popular why didn't the much better Arab bow do similiar things? Druing the crusades the european crossbows let Richard the lionheart win many battles what happend to the compostie bows? I think this shows that the european crossbows are better than the asian composite bows. And the composite bows are more accurate? Just think about it, a drawn bow is more accurate than the crossbow or gun aimed at eye level. Is all this possible?
July 24th, 2004  
Mark Conley
 
 
I am hoping that this discussion is the comparison between the english long bow, and the oriental variants, including the mongol and korean composites.

The english bow is impressive for a bow developed to be fired from a standing position, using massed group firing tactics and the like, Yes it had an incredible draw weight for a one handed, straight pull weapon. Being made from one peice of yew has its advantages too.

The mongol bow, on the other hand, was made smaller to adapt to the fighting tactics of the mongols, since it was used on horseback while the horse was running. Since 6 foot yew trees do not grow in mongolia, bows were made composite or laminated with wood and horn treated and double curved shaped to get the most power from the device. Finnally, the mongol bow is shot using a two handed or double draw method to encrease the power: one hand pushing foward on the bow, one hand pulling the string and arrow simultaneously.

Its said that that the shorter mongol bow could get an extra 60 pounds or so over the long bow, due to the recurve shape, laminated construction, and the two handed pull or draw. The claims to the actual distances and kill lengths are all based on ancient texts that may be slighted as to the writers making words that were pleasing to their mongol conqueors, any body know of a modern day pull off between the two types?

Here is a bow recreationist site site that just shows what the bows looked like, and their lengths. it would seem the length is made based on the use of the bow.

http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/Longbows.html
July 24th, 2004  
dsj
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Conley
The claims to the actual distances and kill lengths are all based on ancient texts that may be slighted as to the writers making words that were pleasing to their mongol conqueors
That is a very good point. The asians were a lot less democratical than the europeans as they are today. the chinese emperors made the chroniclers record a lot of impossible things. The recent shooting was taken from a turkish ambassador from the ottoman empire in england and out shot a M16 with a broken turkish bow. This sound so much like a legend. The people who believes it must explain why the janissaries dropped the bow and used the clumsy and supposedly short ranged fire arms. Why the Mamluks were trained to shoot at targets 75 meters away while the longbow men was expected 200. Also why did the Islamics fighting in spain followed behind spain on the development of the crossbow. 160 pounds of draweight thing is impossible to reach. The longbows already pushed human limits to the extreme. And the turkish bows were well under 100 pounds.
July 25th, 2004  
Mark Conley
 
 
heres an interesting post that describes a world record flight or distance for a turkish bow:

http://seventhsea.itgo.com/7thsea/fa.../weapons02.txt

this is an extract on his statement regarding the English long bow and turkish bows:

"The record was 347 meters set with a 157 lb pull orange & yew longbow. At the 1910 world championships, a 65 lb Turkish bow set the new record of 434 meters.

a better, more believable post can be found here concerning both the english and the turkish bows

http://huntingsociety.org/BowPower.html

"Determined to duplicate these old bows, I selected a very fine grained stave of seasoned yew and made an exact duplicate, according to the recorded measurements.


This bow, when drawn the standard arrow length of twenty-eight inches, weighed sixty-five pounds and shot a light flight arrow two hundred and twenty-five yards. When drawn thirty-six inches, it weighed seventy-six pounds and shot a flight arrow two hundred and fifty-six yards. From this it would seem that even though these ancient staves appear to be almost too powerful for a modern man to draw, they not only are well within our command, but do not shoot a mile. "



"The greatest distance shot by a modern archer was made by Ingo Simon, using a Turkish composite bow, in France in 1913. The measured distance was four hundred and fifty-nine yards and eight inches. That is very near the limit of this type of bow and far beyond the possibilities of the yew long bow. But the long bow is capable of shooting heavier shafts and shooting them harder."

its a pretty good guess that if you find two groups making these claims, there could be some truth in the superority of the turkish bow over the english in distance, the english bow over the turkish in throwing weight.

July 25th, 2004  
dsj
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Conley
heres an interesting post that describes a world record flight or distance for a turkish bow:

http://seventhsea.itgo.com/7thsea/fa.../weapons02.txt

this is an extract on his statement regarding the English long bow and turkish bows:

"The record was 347 meters set with a 157 lb pull orange & yew longbow. At the 1910 world championships, a 65 lb Turkish bow set the new record of 434 meters.

a better, more believable post can be found here concerning both the english and the turkish bows

http://huntingsociety.org/BowPower.html

"Determined to duplicate these old bows, I selected a very fine grained stave of seasoned yew and made an exact duplicate, according to the recorded measurements.


This bow, when drawn the standard arrow length of twenty-eight inches, weighed sixty-five pounds and shot a light flight arrow two hundred and twenty-five yards. When drawn thirty-six inches, it weighed seventy-six pounds and shot a flight arrow two hundred and fifty-six yards. From this it would seem that even though these ancient staves appear to be almost too powerful for a modern man to draw, they not only are well within our command, but do not shoot a mile. "



"The greatest distance shot by a modern archer was made by Ingo Simon, using a Turkish composite bow, in France in 1913. The measured distance was four hundred and fifty-nine yards and eight inches. That is very near the limit of this type of bow and far beyond the possibilities of the yew long bow. But the long bow is capable of shooting heavier shafts and shooting them harder."

its a pretty good guess that if you find two groups making these claims, there could be some truth in the superority of the turkish bow over the english in distance, the english bow over the turkish in throwing weight.

This is the problem, according to the laws of physics the draw weight determines the throwing weight which in turn determines the flight distance. So you can't have a higher armor pericing range but a lower maximum range.
August 1st, 2004  
Endiminion
 
 
so....what your saying is that you still don't think asiatic bows could out perform european bows?
August 3rd, 2004  
silent driller
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootboy82
Quote:
At 320 meters you can't even see your target
Sorry, but that is not correct. You can see a single man from a distance up to 700 meters and smaller groups of people from a distance up to 1.5 kilometers.
...provided you ain't half blind anyway