Bolt Action vs. Semi Auto

I think there is a training manual for sniper teams but I'm sure it can't cover every scenario that a team is liable to encounter. The spotter probably wants to be the one capable of defending the team if they are discovered so an M16 would lay down enough cover to escape.

I have a friend who was wounded in VietNam bad enough to be sent Stateside but before he was sent back, he was in special ops and said that everyone in his team was asked if they would care to go back for sniper training. He said they were asked if they thought they could kill anyone from ambush. I thought that was strange because I thought that was the idea. He said well the guy looking for snipers went back and put an accent on the anyone. He told them he couldn't kill women or kids and especially civilians. He was never asked again.
 
SMPRfidlis said:
lol back on the subject i would have to go with the bolt action for any weapon that is shooting for a one shot one kill. You dont need a semi-auto say if your going after ONE high ranked officer or something of the sort. semi-autos like the .50 beretta aren't used little for anti-personal sniping unless it is at a GREAT distance or the target is behind a wall :D. In that case though the round really isnt doing the damage but the debris hitting the target.

You mean the M82A1 Barret, not beretta.
 
Bolt action is fine and the average magazine holds ten rounds, this comes a right pain when you are under attack by a far larger force, then you have fiddle with the bolt each time you fire then pick your target and lock on to it. In no time flat you then having to reload and the whole time you are doing this the enemy is getting closer and closer. No give me a semi Automatic rifle and a pile of full magazines any time, you don't lose your aiming spot so easily and you not reloading so often, and when you do reload it is a lot quicker.
 
5.56 (or anyone)

Two questions for you.

If the accuracy is minimal between the the semi auto and bolt action then why did the US Army, Marines go back to the bolt actions M24 and M40 from the M21? Surely a sniper would prefer to have the use of a semi auto weapon where he to be stuck in a close quarters fight?

You have mentioned your opinion your support for a .50 cal rifle for civilian use. Im a moderate on the guns issue, I favor certain restrictions but not an outright ban. The .50 cal strikes me as the sort of weapon that should be banned. It would be an ideal assasination weapon for high profile targets, like those that ride in armoured limos. And the thought of being hit by one makes me squeemish...

I dont really see a use for it other action other than for murder. the same way I think fully automatic, grenades, flamethrowers, et al are banned. I'm curious can you express your reasons?
 
mmarsh said:
5.56 (or anyone)

Two questions for you.

If the accuracy is minimal between the the semi auto and bolt action then why did the US Army, Marines go back to the bolt actions M24 and M40 from the M21? Surely a sniper would prefer to have the use of a semi auto weapon where he to be stuck in a close quarters fight?

You have mentioned your opinion your support for a .50 cal rifle for civilian use. Im a moderate on the guns issue, I favor certain restrictions but not an outright ban. The .50 cal strikes me as the sort of weapon that should be banned. It would be an ideal assasination weapon for high profile targets, like those that ride in armoured limos. And the thought of being hit by one makes me squeemish...

I dont really see a use for it other action other than for murder. the same way I think fully automatic, grenades, flamethrowers, et al are banned. I'm curious can you express your reasons?


Ok I'm no expert on bolt-actions (I'm a semi man), but most military bolt-actions use match grade ammo with a boattail to reduce drag. The ammo has a certain type of powder and the scope must be "doped in" to the serial number on the box. An M21/M14 can use any type of 7.62x51mm (NATO, US, Russian, ect...), the M24 and M40 must have match grade of the barrel will expand and it will cause warpage on the stock. The M40 has a medium-heavy free floating stock with a gap between the barrel and stock the thickness of a dollar bill and if that gap is in any way "filled" or the stock touches the barrel the rounds will vary when they hit a target. (Plus bolts use the bullets gases to be pushed down the barrel as with any gun, but on a semi you must divert a small amount to eject the casings.)


Why ban .50 cal? That means that M2's used in display's and reenactments are illegal and that Civil and Revolitionary War pirod rifles and reproductions must be banned. I have a Springfeild lead ball and its 69. cal. Plus armored limos ballistic glasss can be taken out with a 7.62mm. I was thinking of buying an M82 myself, for sport shooting of course. But, why ban that? People own tanks, APC's, cannons, ect.... Oh just to clarify Grenades and Flamethrowers aren't banned.
 
Cadet Seaman

I was referring to civilian ownership. Grenades and Flamethrowers are banned under that National Firearms Act of 1934. Also I was referring to .50 rifles, not Heavy Machine guns. I don't know what the deal is for reenactors I know they can have them but they have to be rendered inoperable in some way. Perhaps someone else can clarify?

Im not an armourer, but a .69 lead ball (I have fired a friends Springfield 1861 Springfield .58) does not have the same punch as say a Barret M82. Which is the sort of weapon I was referring about.
 
mmarsh said:
Cadet Seaman

I was referring to civilian ownership. Grenades and Flamethrowers are banned under that National Firearms Act of 1934. Also I was referring to .50 rifles, not Heavy Machine guns. I don't know what the deal is for reenactors I know they can have them but they have to be rendered inoperable in some way. Perhaps someone else can clarify?

Im not an armourer, but a .69 lead ball (I have fired a friends Springfield 1861 Springfield .58) does not have the same punch as say a Barret M82. Which is the sort of weapon I was referring about.

But the weapon is still a .50cal.

No reenactment weapon must render inoperable. Flamethrowers aren't banned. I know two people who own 1941 flamethrowers, you must have a lisence. Also the National Firearms Act of 1934 didn't ban automatics. In 1946 you could buy an M1A1 Thompson for $28, fully operable.

I myself have fired a Springfield (no shot), and it is more dangerous. Lead balls go slower than a modern round, they can get stuck in a persons body and can drag clothe, and other material with it and that can cause infections and contamination. Versus a modren rouind going as fast as they do burns of all bactria and the round just going through a target. (Was a good show on the History Channel on it.)
 
I read a book written about the 23 SAS guys. They had a mission where they had to knock on the IRA's door and ask them what the problem was. Anyway, things got hairy and 3 dudes ended up getting into a hired truck to get away. 2 sniper teams on the surrounding rooftops could have easily shot the guys but instead on of them used a .50 AW50F or a variant thereof and fired through the engine block of the truck. the guys surrendered, and they got three people to interogate rather than corpses. in this case a .50 CAl makes sense but with the accuracy of modern snipers, bolt or semi, the size of the hole doesnt matter, just where u hit them. unless u want to hit through doors and walls using thermals, in which case the round might richochet anyway.

To really debate the effectiveness of semi v bolt, you have to understand what type of sniping we are talking about., and the conditions that are prevailing.

In the case stated above, it was a SWAT style operation, which usually lasts 5 - 15 seconds. There are limited targets so there is no need for high rate of fire sniper weapons. Generally, each shooter gets one target and thats it. In this case a bolt is probably more preferable.

For example, in urban conditions, such as Baghdad, two types would probably be used. At squad level, the Designated Marksman would use a semi such as the the M 21, because that area would generally be considered a target - rich environment and therefore there is a need to fire at multiple targets fairly rapidly.

However, in the same locale, different assignment, Sniper team, (one shooter one spotter). Shooter would probably use a bolt action because of longer range and MOA accuracy and a smaller need to fire many shots. At a time of occupation, such as current middle east, such a team would probably be in place for short to medium periods of time, maybe with insertion by vehicle and as such would be able to take more gear with them. Spotter may have a semi auto because of the obvious close range benefits but if they can take more gear they may even get AR's for both of them.

a really good site with heaps of links is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_rifles
 
Good info ... I googled this thread and read all post, but there is one question that i cant seem to find an answer to. One person mention gas escape through the bolt, but what about the gas tube of gas operated autos. Would that reduce barrel pressure or is it negligable? Im researching this for a 6mmBR biuld. One thing i have found out is that every diameter and length of a projectile has an optimum speed for small groups. To slow, it drops. To fast, the ballistics becomes volatile.
 
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I know that ammo quality has played a part in the perceived advantages of the bolt vs the semi-auto rifle. With the improvements in quality both in the ammunition and relability of the rifles themselves - is there still a big advantage to the bolt action? Or is the preference for bolt actions just a case of what is most familiar (and has historically worked the best) to the experts who are involved in training and documenting procedures for the snipers of today. I would think (and I am not a expert) that a reliable semi-automatic rifle would be better.
 
Lots of comments by folks who have never laid hands on a weapon.

A bolt action piece is a bit more rigid in design which accounts for some superiority.
No parts moving about during the firing process.

A semi aids in concealment where you might be spotted operating a bolt.

One shot -one kill is a big myth-sometimes you miss.

An acquaintance, retired SF Major and professional shooter, contracts as a sniper instructor.
One of his basic classes is on getting past that and having one self set up for a subsequent shot.
 
Lots of comments by folks who have never laid hands on a weapon.

A bolt action piece is a bit more rigid in design which accounts for some superiority.
No parts moving about during the firing process.

A semi aids in concealment where you might be spotted operating a bolt.

One shot -one kill is a big myth-sometimes you miss.

An acquaintance, retired SF Major and professional shooter, contracts as a sniper instructor.
One of his basic classes is on getting past that and having one self set up for a subsequent shot.


Thank you for your insight MikeP. I do have some firearms experience, but I am not a sniper, or even a competative marksman. Still I enjoy shooting on the range on a monthly basis and consider firearms to be a passion and favorite hobby. I am happy to learn from people with more knowledge than myself. I have owned several bolt action and semi-automatic rifles, and found that I could shoot equally well with both types. I supose the difference between the two is seen at higher levels of skill than I have.
 
A bolt action rifle is very accurate but on the down side you come of your aiming point every time you reload. With a SLR your site might only move a fraction of the target as the rifle reloads, which should mean your next shot should be on target even quicker, and when some is trying to kill you then this can save your life
 
5.56 (or anyone)

Two questions for you.

If the accuracy is minimal between the the semi auto and bolt action then why did the US Army, Marines go back to the bolt actions M24 and M40 from the M21? Surely a sniper would prefer to have the use of a semi auto weapon where he to be stuck in a close quarters fight?

You have mentioned your opinion your support for a .50 cal rifle for civilian use. Im a moderate on the guns issue, I favor certain restrictions but not an outright ban. The .50 cal strikes me as the sort of weapon that should be banned. It would be an ideal assasination weapon for high profile targets, like those that ride in armoured limos. And the thought of being hit by one makes me squeemish...

I dont really see a use for it other action other than for murder. the same way I think fully automatic, grenades, flamethrowers, et al are banned. I'm curious can you express your reasons?

To address one aspect of your post;

Snipers generally operate in "pairs"... the shooter and the spotter. The shooter might be carrying a bolt-action for greater accuracy, while the spotter will carry a semi-auto "designated marksman rifle" (like the SR25) or even a standard carbine like the M4 to give protection to the shooter, if needed. Keep in mind, if they're doing the job properly, no one will be able to figure out where they are, which is much better security than a rapid fire weapon.
 
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