Bloody Israeli raid on flotilla sparks crisis

Bror Jace said:
It should also be pointed out that the reason for the "aid workers" trying to break the Egypt-Israeli blockade of the Gaza strip is that Hamas, which governs the Palestinian-held strip, wants to import heavy weapons (primarily from Iran) ... especially rockets which they regularly launch into Israel.

All legitimate (non-weapon) aid to the Palestinians may pass through designated checkpoints with minimal delay.

If this is happening in international waters where Israel has no right to board the ships ... maybe they should just declare war on Hamas?
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The sad thing is, that the Israelis were more responsible for Hamas being elected elected as the governing body than any other group.

Had they have not treated the Palestinians as they have, extremist groups like Hamas would never be considered by the people who in this case have elected them.
 
Well, on one side you got law, and on the other side you get yourself into smb's shoes.

As for law, you can't say 'i think' here. If all this happened in international waters, it means that Israel has expanded area of validity of the Israeli laws, and no1 actually had to obey them, including this flotilla.

In this case the flotilla crew members could have thought in the following ways:
1. They were going to ignore the blockade hoping that Israelis won't stop them by force due to several high-ranking people on board.
2. They were actually asking for what they have recieved. From the very beginning they were trying to provoke the Israelis to arrest them, beat them up and probably smth has gone wrong (or maybe hasn't) and some of them were shot.
One way or another, these people didn't brake any laws. So at this point, when the israelis offered them to turn to Ashdod instead of Gaza or else... that's called blackmail, and it was the Israelis who actually have broken the law. When they've arrested other ships it was illegal, when they've started to storm this Marmara it was nothing but piracy.

So again, in this case flotilla crew members could:
1. Do nothing, get under arrest, get tuged to Ashdod and get released the next day. Fail.
2. Resist. Again, there could be two possibilites:
a) to resist in order to prevent the israelis from capturing the ship
b) to resist in order to provoke the israelis to make stupid things

From the point of logic for me it's hard to believe that if Israeli commandos have decided to capture the ship any1 was able to stop them. I mean what were the crew members' chances? Iron pipes and kitchen knives against M16s? The only way was just to throw out the commandos from the ship. Though in this case another raid would have certainly followed, at the same time it would be like the crew hadn't broken any laws yet. They were just defending themselves from israelis attack in international waters, they didn't hurt anyone, they just prevented the israelis from capturing their own ship under the turkish flag. For some reasong it went another way.

So, to sum up, we got: Israel breaking law at least 3 times (threatening foreign ship in international waters, piracy, at least 9 murders on Turkish territory which was the deck). Marmara crew breaking law once: beating up Israeli soldiers. Israeli murders and turkish stabbings can theoretically be excused by self-defence. Piracy can't.

So when they say smth like "Israel had its right to defend itself bla bla.." that is hypocrisy. But when they say "That was a damn peacefull ship, wtf, f**k Israel!!" that is biased bulls**t. I personally believe that both those who came up with the idea of that flotilla and those who were in charge of the raid against it, are damn jerks.
 
Shmack said:
I personally believe that both those who came up with the idea of that flotilla and those who were in charge of the raid against it, are damn jerks.
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Yeah, I certainly think that both sides are wrong in this case as well.
The Israelis had borded 5 other ships without any violence at all before boarding the Mavi Marmara, so why did it end so badly on that ship and not the others??
To me it looks like the other ships in the convoy was run by legit peace activist and aid workers, but the Mavi Marmara was only there as a big Propaganda/"PR" show staged by Hamas and Hamas supporters who wanted violent confrontations in the first place to use as propaganda, and the Israelis wasn't prepared for that at all.
A lot of evidence supporting this has been published the last few days.


I found this interesting blog post in a Norwegian forum yesterday:
http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2010/05/was-israels-boarding-of-gaza-flotilla.html
(have no idea if this is correct or not, so comments from someone with knowledge about this would is appreciated)
 
"The Israelis had boarded 5 other ships without any violence at all before boarding the Mavi Marmara, so why did it end so badly on that ship and not the others??"

Another theory is that the first few ships were sent through and surrendered peacefully in order to get the Israelis to become lax. Then they send this ship through with many aggressive activists on it in order to ambush Israeli soldiers and/or create an international incident ... which has been the result (intended or not).

There are press reports here in the US that some of the activists on that ship stated (before the incident) to others that they wished to me martyrs. If so, they got their wish.

senojekips, the media here in the States is very much pro-Palestinian and quick to make the Israelis look like bullies in every Palestinian-Israeli engagement.
 
Bror Jace said:
senojekips, the media here in the States is very much pro-Palestinian and quick to make the Israelis look like bullies in every Palestinian-Israeli engagement.
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Interesting,... I can't say that I am completely au fait with the views of the US media, but in my opinion I would have thought, "How could they in all honesty be otherwise". But unfortunately I am not always right.

I know that the media are infamous for being under the influence of "The Big end of town" or "The Far Left", according to the politics of the reader, but,... to deny the Palestinians the justice accorded to them under half a dozen different international laws would be rather stupid,... even for the media.

At this stage it appears that the media are not the problem, the problem is political.
 
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Redleg said:
I found this interesting blog post in a Norwegian forum yesterday:
http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2010/05/was-israels-boarding-of-gaza-flotilla.html
(have no idea if this is correct or not, so comments from someone with knowledge about this would is appreciated)
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While it is not entirely inaccurate it does not tell the entire story, as I understand it the laws in effect currently are the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/560?OpenDocument

This sets out what can be done and also what is exempt but they have seemingly over looked one small section namely section 47 and 48.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

47. The following classes of enemy vessels are exempt from attack:

(a) hospital ships;
(b) small craft used for coastal rescue operations and other medical transports;
(c) vessels granted safe conduct by agreement between the belligerent parties including:
(i) cartel vessels, e.g., vessels designated for and engaged in the transport of prisoners of war;
(ii) vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations;
(d) vessels engaged in transporting cultural property under special protection;
(e) passenger vessels when engaged only in carrying civilian passengers;
(f) vessels charged with religious, non-military scientifc or philanthropic missions, vessels collecting scientific data of likely military applications are not protected;
(g) small coastal fishing vessels and small boats engaged in local coastal trade, but they are subject to the regulations of a belligerent naval commander operating in the area and to inspection;
(h) vessels designated or adapted exclusively for responding to pollution incidents in the marine environment;
(i) vessels which have surrendered;
(j) life rafts and life boats.

Conditions of exemption

48. Vessels listed in paragraph 47 are exempt from attack only if they:

(a) are innocently employed in their normal role;
(b) submit to identification and inspection when required; and
(c) do not intentionally hamper the movement of combatants and obey orders to stop or move out of the way when required.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

One area that Israel could use as a mitigating excuse is 48. b. however all but one vessel did stop and allow boarding.

There is also a large grey area concerning the legitimacy of the blockade itself given that Israel does not recognise either Hamas nor the area as a government nor state therefore you can not impose a blockade on what technically doesn't exist which is why as I understand it the UN does not recognise it as a legitimate blockade.

Basically determining legalities is almost impossible here as there are 10000000 rules and regulations that cover this area and all of them contradict themselves at one point or another.
 
As usual Israel will steal the goods, distribute a fraction of them to Palestinians for the sake of the media and use the rest for itself.

They murdered people while the world was watching, stealing their stuff is small fry by now.
 
Redleg said:
Ok? I would really appreciate sources for that.
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All i can give you is the description of shortages in Gaza, among them building material (Israeli Jews dont want Palestinians developing in the region) so something does not compute, either Israeli destroys the stuff or more likely uses the aid for themselves.
 
Panzercracker said:
All i can give you is the description of shortages in Gaza, among them building material (Israeli Jews dont want Palestinians developing in the region) so something does not compute, either Israeli destroys the stuff or more likely uses the aid for themselves.
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It's a bit like Israels denial of it's nuclear weapons development. Everyone knows that it's going on, but there has no been and admission of it. There are times when proof is not available, but a perpetrators past history is a damned good indicator as to the truth of the matter.

I particularly liked their reasoning for the banning of the importation of cement,... "Hamas may use it to build bunkers". More likely a way to prevent any reconstruction from occurring. Plus the fact that we all know what terrible offensive weapons that bunkers are don't we, what are they going to do with these bunkers,... drop the on Israeli tanks? Wake up Israel bunkers are defensive works.
 
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This gets better by the day...

Gaza blockade: Iran offers escort to next aid convoy
• Aide threatens use of Revolutionary Guard
• Netanyahu warns of Jerusalem missile danger
Ian Black, Middle East editor
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 6 June 2010 21.20 BST
larger | smaller

Hojjatoleslam Ali Shirazi, an aide to Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, pledged Tehran would send Revolutionary Guard units to escort Gaza aid convoys. Photograph: Reuters
Iran has warned that it could send Revolutionary Guard naval units to escort humanitarian aid convoys seeking to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza – a move that would certainly be challenged by Israel.

Any such Iranian involvement, raised today by an aide to the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, would constitute a serious escalation of already high tensions with Israel, which accuses Tehran of seeking to build a nuclear weapon and of backing Hamas, the Islamist movement that controls Gaza.

"Iran's Revolutionary Guard naval forces are prepared to escort the peace and freedom convoys that carry humanitarian assistance for the defenceless and oppressed people of Gaza with all their strength," pledged Hojjatoleslam Ali Shirazi, Khamenei's personal representative to the guards corps.

The threat came as the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, dismissed a UN proposal for an international commission to investigate last week's commando assault on aid ships, in which nine people died. Another aid ship, the Rachel Corrie, carrying Irish and other peace activists, was boarded peacefully by Israeli forces on Saturday, escorted to the port of Ashdod, and its passengers deported.

Netanyahu has defended Israel's right to maintain the blockade by arguing that without it Gaza would become an "Iranian port" and Hamas missiles would strike Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Israel's undeclared aim is to weaken or bring down the Hamas government.

Iran continued to exploit the "freedom flotilla" affair to lambast Israel. Its foreign minister, Manuchehr Mottaki, told the Organisation of the Islamic Conference in Jeddah on Sunday that Israel's crime was "another instance of the Zionist regime's brazen and merciless treatment of Muslims, especially the oppressed Palestinian people."

Mottaki also called for a UN resolution condemning Israel. The security council is discussing imposing new sanctions on Iran because of its failure to meet international demands over its nuclear programme.

Iran and Israel have had no diplomatic relations since the 1979 revolution and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad regularly predicts the disappearance of the Jewish state as well as denying the Holocaust.

Shirazi said Iran should encourage international efforts to break the blockade. "We should expose our enemies to spontaneous global action and not let them achieve their heinous goals," he was quoted as saying by the semi-official Mehr news agency.

Iran's Revolutionary Guards, which have a command structure separate from the regular armed forces, are fiercely loyal to the supreme leader. Khamenei has attacked the raid as a "mistake" that "showed how barbaric the Zionists are".

Israel's determination to strike at links between Iran and Hamas was dramatically demonstrated in January when presumed Mossad agents in Dubai assassinated Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, who was described as the Hamas official in charge of smuggling Iranian weapons into Gaza.

Israel's no-compromise attitude to aid convoys could be tested again after two Lebanese organisations pledged to send boats to Gaza in the next few days. Reporters Without Borders is attempting to assemble 25 European activists and 50 journalists for a boat leaving Beirut. The Free Palestine Movement is planning a similar attempt.

George Galloway, the founder of Viva Palestina, announced in London that two simultaneous convoys "one by land via Egypt and the other by sea" would set out in September to break the Gaza blockade. The sea convoy of up to 60 ships will travel around the Mediterranean gathering ships, cargo and volunteers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy/print
 
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Panzercracker said:
All i can give you is the description of shortages in Gaza, among them building material (Israeli Jews dont want Palestinians developing in the region) so something does not compute, either Israeli destroys the stuff or more likely uses the aid for themselves.
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So you have no sources in other words...
Then you should keep such speculations out of this thread!

On-topic again:

These images was just published on a Norwegian news site.
The ones on the right are the originals from Turkey, on the left are re-published ones, after editing, by Reuters..
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/120/120470/12047099/jpg/active/960x.jpg

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/120/120472/12047207/jpg/active/503x.jpg

It's not the first time Reuters has been accused of manipulating images.
 
Seeing that there has never been any real denial that the passengers resisted by using whatever weapons they had at hand, and it is known that several commandos suffered stab wounds, I see no purpose in anyone bothering to doctor the images. I'd say there's a good chance that this is another poorly done attempt to blacken the name of the defenders or more likely the news agency who may be getting too close to the truth.

We must remember at this time, that as yet the passengers have not been shown to have done anything illegal, in fact, it would seem that the majority of legal opinion is in their favour.

Except in Israel.....

For the life of me I can't work out why an Internationally recognised Press Agency such as Reuters would attempt a stunt that is so easily found out, ... ridiculously easily shown up,... it makes one wonder. I also notice that although the commando is being held down, the hand with the knife is not stabbing him as it would have been if the passengers were trying to kill the attackers, this supports the story that they were merely resisting, and using only such force as was necessary to keep control.
 
First of all this event has a huge impact on Turkish - Israeli relations. Some of our people are furious about Israel and their brutality against Turkish citizens in Mavi Marmara. But some of them like me, think that we need to be objective about what happened there.

1- Why Israeli raid and attack of the commandos happened in International waters?
2- Israel warned the ships and the aid ships insisted on moving there, so this makes the situation a little bit different. Some people may think that the activists in Mavi Marmara are prepared to die.
3- Why should Israeli Commandos kill the ones that are called activist? One forensic report about the dead ones brought to Turkey says that one of the dead ones has 4 bullet wounds on head. Are Israeli commandos not good at firing to non-lethal parts of the bodies to stop them? I believe Israeli commandos need to defend themselves but this is not giving them the right to kill them.
4- Some international news cliams that some of the activists are in close relations with Hamas and Israel was right to attack them. (This maybe right, because there are several radical groups in Turkey support Hamas ideas about Israeli - Palestenian Conflict)
5- Hamas is in a terror list of Canada, US, Japan and EU. Is helping people in Gaza Strip ( Palestine ) means helping Hamas?
6- The ships were raid by Israel was not sent by Turkish Government, they were going there on their own, but the ones who were dead in that raid were Turks so this makes our people sensitive about this event. And the government in Turkey now uses this event to increase their vote ratios. Recep Tayyip Erdogan (The Turkish President) declared that our government may send the new aid flotilla accompanied by Turkish War Ships. This may lead very unfortunate results but I don't believe that he may do something like that.
7- I don't believe that such an incident is strong enough to end Turkish - Israeli relations. But UN and the other international communities should investigate what happened there and should punish Israel by attacking and killing civilians in International waters.
 
I have been following this incident and I must say it disgusts me how trained commandos probably carrying fully automatic assault rifles, semi-auto hand guns, stunt grenades probably, concussion grenades, and probably all kinds of other tools couldn't simply use something less lethal like tear gas, stunt grenade, rubber bullets or water hoses from the Israeli ships that were next to the aid ship. Saying they couldn't deal with these activists is b******t the Israelis meant to go in with force and kill a few people so that future activists would be intimidated into not trying to break the blockade.

I honestly believes Israel acts with impunity because they know they have the support of America and no UNSC binding resolution or sanctions will happen because of U.S. veto. The United States needs to stop giving Israel a blank check to do as they please because when Israel acts so recklessly they make more enemies than friends in the world, and the last thing Israel should want is more enemies.

America needs to reign in Israel because if any other country did what Israel did in international waters omg all hell will reign upon that country for committing such a crime but as we have seen Israel yet again gets away with another crime. Anyone that condones Israeli recent actions then must condone the killing of innocent people period.
 
Justice said:
---snip---I honestly believes Israel acts with impunity because they know they have the support of America and no UNSC binding resolution or sanctions will happen because of U.S. veto. The United States needs to stop giving Israel a blank check to do as they please because when Israel acts so recklessly they make more enemies than friends in the world, and the last thing Israel should want is more enemies.

America needs to reign in Israel because if any other country did what Israel did in international waters omg all hell will reign upon that country for committing such a crime but as we have seen Israel yet again gets away with another crime. Anyone that condones Israeli recent actions then must condone the killing of innocent people period.
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I would have loved to have said what you have, but being an "ignorant foreigner", I would have been accused of being anti USA. I pleases me to see that a least one other person can see what's happening.

The USA alternately bemoans the fact that "no one likes them" or else takes the redneck option "we don't care what others think" , and then wonders why so many people hate them.

To me, it seems that the US hierarchy is completely uninterested in what is "right" in this and other policies, but allows them to become political footballs keeping politicians from doing what they are elected to do, govern the USA to the advantage of the citizens, it merely creates a situation where the noisy (and powerful) minority gets pretty much whatever they want. No one is looking to see where this is going. It's costing US taxpayers billions, actively contributing to world instability and killing thousands of your country's finest young men and women,.... and it is getting worse.
 
Justice said:
America needs to reign in Israel because if any other country did what Israel did in international waters omg all hell will reign upon that country for committing such a crime but as we have seen Israel yet again gets away with another crime. Anyone that condones Israeli recent actions then must condone the killing of innocent people period.
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Exactly, replace the word Israel with the word Iran in this affair and see how loudly the war drums would have been beating there would have been enough sanctions and UN resolutions to wall paper the White house.
 
senojekips said:
I would have loved to have said what you have, but being an "ignorant foreigner", I would have been accused of being anti USA. I pleases me to see that a least one other person can see what's happening.

The USA alternately bemoans the fact that "no one likes them" or else takes the redneck option "we don't care what others think" , and then wonders why so many people hate them.

To me, it seems that the US hierarchy is completely uninterested in what is "right" in this and other policies, but allows them to become political footballs keeping politicians from doing what they are elected to do, govern the USA to the advantage of the citizens, it merely creates a situation where the noisy (and powerful) minority gets pretty much whatever they want. No one is looking to see where this is going. It's costing US taxpayers billions, actively contributing to world instability and killing thousands of your country's finest young men and women,.... and it is getting worse.
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I agree with you, It sickens me that American weapons and tax payer money is being used to murder innocent humanitarian civilians. What has this world come to? And while the whole world from our friends the British and French to the Russians and Chinese and everyone else in between condemned this and asked for an international panel to investigate this tragedy impartially, the U.S. stood out in its silence over the despicable incident and even backed Israel in its refusal for an international panel to investigate.

For one how can Israel claim that it will investigate itself? How can the very Israelis that committed these crimes be trusted to impartially investigate the incident? What sickens me more is the fact that as soon as this incident hit the roof why did Israel do what it does so well that is to throw dirt and try to discredit anyone that stands against such heinous crime as the murdering of humanitarian activists in international waters and the illegal Gaza blockade. Israel started to throw dirt and call the humanitarian activists terrorists that are linked to Al Qaeda, I mean damn if even mother Theresa and the pope were on those boats and happen to had been murdered the Israelis wouldn't hesitate to say that mother Theresa was a terrorist and that the Pope had meetings with Bin Laden himself.

I mean come on America when did the Palestinians become a threat to America? When did Israeli security become paramount to American security? When did we flush the very values America stood for and was founded on such as freedom, equality, justice down the drain? How can America be believed when it says it wants freedom and liberty for Iraqis, Afghans and Sudanese when it failed to get freedom and liberty for Palestinians for the last 60+ years?
 
Justice said:
I agree with you, It sickens me that American weapons and tax payer money is being used to murder innocent humanitarian civilians. What has this world come to? And while the whole world from our friends the British and French to the Russians and Chinese and everyone else in between condemned this and asked for an international panel to investigate this tragedy impartially, the U.S. stood out in its silence over the despicable incident and even backed Israel in its refusal for an international panel to investigate.

For one how can Israel claim that it will investigate itself? How can the very Israelis that committed these crimes be trusted to impartially investigate the incident? What sickens me more is the fact that as soon as this incident hit the roof why did Israel do what it does so well that is to throw dirt and try to discredit anyone that stands against such heinous crime as the murdering of humanitarian activists in international waters and the illegal Gaza blockade. Israel started to throw dirt and call the humanitarian activists terrorists that are linked to Al Qaeda, I mean damn if even mother Theresa and the pope were on those boats and happen to had been murdered the Israelis wouldn't hesitate to say that mother Theresa was a terrorist and that the Pope had meetings with Bin Laden himself.

I mean come on America when did the Palestinians become a threat to America? When did Israeli security become paramount to American security? When did we flush the very values America stood for and was founded on such as freedom, equality, justice down the drain? How can America be believed when it says it wants freedom and liberty for Iraqis, Afghans and Sudanese when it failed to get freedom and liberty for Palestinians for the last 60+ years?
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One thing to consider here though before we start pointing fingers and apportioning guilt the flotilla's purpose was to illicit a response as much as it was to deliver aid they deliberately put themselves in a position of confrontation. Israel is not totally to blame for the incident just the level of extreme over reaction which I think is borne from the ability to hide behind the USA.

As far as America's values and principles go though I am afraid that much like the rest of the world political expediency trumps both values and principles, no matter how high and righteous their aspirations politicians the world over would sell you their children for 10 minutes more in power.
 
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