Blitzkrieg strategy still effective in modern warfare?
chief_darkcloud
New Member
It still would be an effective tactic should there be another large scale conventional war. However that may be short lived since we would all probably be glowing in the dark soon after
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
I think it's pretty standard and has been for a long time.
I think you guys might be getting a little confused. What do you mean by blitzkrieg?
The IDF did not fight a blitzkrieg style war in lebanon in 2006. Blitzkriegs principles were to bypass major opposition points and breakthrough in weak points, severing the enemies suplies and destroying its abiliity to command and controll. In fact i believe the IDF never did fight a classic blitzkrieg war, as it has always made a very hard breakthrough, as it was usually extremely hard to bypass the strong points of the arab lines. in 1956 and 1967 israel attacked the egyptians through a well fortified defence line. israel rarely manouvered around hardpoints, opting usually to break them and decide the war by destoying the arab forces indirect conflict.
Not all situations allow for a manouver that bypasses the enemies defences and goes straight for the killing blow. Not all combined arms warfare is blitzkrieg.
Cheers.
The IDF did not fight a blitzkrieg style war in lebanon in 2006. Blitzkriegs principles were to bypass major opposition points and breakthrough in weak points, severing the enemies suplies and destroying its abiliity to command and controll. In fact i believe the IDF never did fight a classic blitzkrieg war, as it has always made a very hard breakthrough, as it was usually extremely hard to bypass the strong points of the arab lines. in 1956 and 1967 israel attacked the egyptians through a well fortified defence line. israel rarely manouvered around hardpoints, opting usually to break them and decide the war by destoying the arab forces indirect conflict.
Not all situations allow for a manouver that bypasses the enemies defences and goes straight for the killing blow. Not all combined arms warfare is blitzkrieg.
Cheers.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
You mean we're going to settle our civilian population over there, get them all riled up and have them go fight the enemy in their own way?
Usually what you can do is to get two bastards you dislike and get them to fight each other (Iran-Iraq War). Sell weapons to both sides perhaps.
That's the cheaper, simpler and easier version.
Lunatik
Active member
That's what I meant. Use the differences among the local population to your advantage.
@SHERMAN
Yeap, thanks for clearing that up.
as for rather or not blitzkrieg or conventional warfare with combined arms can defeat a gurilla type enemy, id say the ansawer is probably yes. this depends on the goals set by the political echlon, and as we know they have some problems with setting clear goals. In 2006 israeli politicians were talking about redicules things like rooting hizballah completely or releasing the hostages. this is not the sort of thing you can do by short span operations, certinly the release of a few prisoners should not be the objective a full scale invasion. when ill get back home i will wirte a short summery of the 2006 war and you guys will see more clearly what i mean.
Papashah41
Active member
The blitzkrieg and the kampfgruppe are used today by all nations smart enough to use the concepts. These two original uses of military doctrine are probably the two best things we got from the Nazi's. We beat them with material wealth and quantity of weapons. We certainly did not beat them with tactical superiority.
One of the reasons blitzkrieg and Kampfgruppe tactics won the day was the quality of the Heer and SS commanders. These men led from the front at corp, regimental and divisional level. It was not uncommon to see a Brigadier General of the waffen SS fighting with his men. How many allied Generals were ever less than three miles away?
One of the reasons blitzkrieg and Kampfgruppe tactics won the day was the quality of the Heer and SS commanders. These men led from the front at corp, regimental and divisional level. It was not uncommon to see a Brigadier General of the waffen SS fighting with his men. How many allied Generals were ever less than three miles away?
Last edited by a moderator:
Im still not convinced that all of what we think of as blitzkrieg was indeed blitzkrieg. certimly the fighting in poland and france in the start of WWII were examples. but the germans themselves chose to attack heavily fortified areas like Stalingrad, leningrad, and others, dragging themselves into what can only desccribed as a meat grider of attrition.
As to the claim that the German operational theories are the basis for everything done since, i would very much be carefull. we look at the germans as being beaten by superior noumbers, but really, that dose not excuse one of fault. A country has to be smart about picking its fights and the germans picked too many of them at the same time. People will say, "oh that was hitler, not the german army", well tough ****, the german army did very little to stop him, and did not stand in his way, allowing him to put the country in to suicide mode.
As for your claim that German tactical commanders were superior, that is my impression as well. But you must remember that we dont hear much about the german incompetent commanders, we dont usually hear much about allied commanders below the brigadier general level, and so comparing them is very hard. Also bear in mind the Guderian and the other german tank warfare stars took alot of insperation from british thinkers...
As to the claim that the German operational theories are the basis for everything done since, i would very much be carefull. we look at the germans as being beaten by superior noumbers, but really, that dose not excuse one of fault. A country has to be smart about picking its fights and the germans picked too many of them at the same time. People will say, "oh that was hitler, not the german army", well tough ****, the german army did very little to stop him, and did not stand in his way, allowing him to put the country in to suicide mode.
As for your claim that German tactical commanders were superior, that is my impression as well. But you must remember that we dont hear much about the german incompetent commanders, we dont usually hear much about allied commanders below the brigadier general level, and so comparing them is very hard. Also bear in mind the Guderian and the other german tank warfare stars took alot of insperation from british thinkers...
The constant worshipping of Germany's WW11 military prowess leaves me cold.
They called all the shots and lost every single one at the final count. To me that spells defeat, second best at best, humiliation at worst. So why not simply accept that they took a tremendous thrashing all around the wicket, as well as losing all respect by virtue of the regime they were so enthusiastically devoted to.
I consider that the Germany we see now does not need the white knuckle clinging to the reputation of such gigantic losers.
It seems to me that we now see the Germany which is a real winner in world leadership. No-one could be more delighted than me to have lived to see that success and to welcome it.
They called all the shots and lost every single one at the final count. To me that spells defeat, second best at best, humiliation at worst. So why not simply accept that they took a tremendous thrashing all around the wicket, as well as losing all respect by virtue of the regime they were so enthusiastically devoted to.
I consider that the Germany we see now does not need the white knuckle clinging to the reputation of such gigantic losers.
It seems to me that we now see the Germany which is a real winner in world leadership. No-one could be more delighted than me to have lived to see that success and to welcome it.
Last edited:
Accepted Papashah. I guess I suffer from knee-jerk reaction when I see the oft repeated German military' brilliance' coupled with the 'incompetence' of Brits response. After all, like Lee Enfield, I was part of the jig-saw at the time, he moreso than I of course. However , on a military forum, I should leave it to the military students here to unravel such matters. My point is just that, being surrounded by so many returning combatants (most of our men, remember), from all fronts, I cannot recall any of them referring to their opponents ever as other than 'good' fighting men. Certainly not supermen by any means.
I know that you guys have read many good books on the suject, but I just wonder how many of thos authors were combatants at the time.
Having said that, I am happy to stand down in the face of more detailed recorded experience. Any reflected glory gained by the memory of the regime draws a response from me; I will try to restrain myself in future. I mean no offence on this forum, and I hope guys will understand that.:cheers: Please carry on, pardon the intrusion.
I know that you guys have read many good books on the suject, but I just wonder how many of thos authors were combatants at the time.
Having said that, I am happy to stand down in the face of more detailed recorded experience. Any reflected glory gained by the memory of the regime draws a response from me; I will try to restrain myself in future. I mean no offence on this forum, and I hope guys will understand that.:cheers: Please carry on, pardon the intrusion.
Last edited:
Papashah41
Active member
Del Boy, There was never an intrusion. And, if you were part of that jigsaw as you say, I would be delighted to read further responses from you. I grew up in a small city called West Kildonan. It became a burb of the larger city of Winnipeg. All of my neighbours were vets of WW2. A few of them were former Heer and even Waffen SS soldiers. The experience they detailed was about Italy, Normandy, Holland and the Scheldt Estuary. The reason my interest in this period is so strong, was because of the emotional recounting of events by these people. Most of them had horror stories to tell, but I remember two friend's of my father who said it was the best time of their lives. All of my neighbours were Canadians or becoming so. Their backgrounds, Brits, Poles, Czechs, French, Dutch, Russians, Germans and Jews for the most part got along famously. I'm sure it was a dark but fascinating time when the whole world was on fire.
Very interesting papashah. I believe that Lee Enfield served in WW11, but I am not sure of that. As for me, my experience of it was as a child, 4 years old in 1939. I experienced losing my London homes to the Lutwaffe, in the area now earmarked for the 2012 Olympics. I experienced life as an evacuee in Somerset, without my parents, until about 9 years old. I saw the coming and going of Canadian, and US ( segregated black and white)camps in my village and I knew the guys well; they were great to a little kid. On either sides of the village church gates are great redwoods, and i wonder whether those troops initiated them. So I lived under threat of invasion for a long time. I served from 1950, first in the Merchant Navy, cargo ships up the west coast of US to Vancouver and New Westminster twice, New Zealand, West Indies, Europe etc at other times. So at 16/17 years I found myself in Hamburg a few times (1951). Then at 18 I joined a The HLI (Highland Light Infantry), I believe you have a Canadian HLI, and served in Egypt. All my uncles served in WW11, Desert Rats in North Africa, Royal Navy ( HMS Hood), The Queen ships, Submariners, Italy Monte Casino (one on each side) Burma, friends were Jap prisoners for five years, and others met up with Russian troops at one stage. BTW - in the first election after the war, the one where Churchill was cast aside after his great effort, I worked in the election HQ of Major Paul Wright, a Montgomery staff officer, Liberal Party candidate. I also met Field Marshall Auchinleck. My stepfather survived Dunkirk after having spent 10 years in India's north west frontier, with the HLI, my father- in -law did 2 terms there, one of 10 years, and terms in China, and Palestine. Another uncle, the one at Monte Casino, was also one of the German death camp confronters. He was a Segeant Major, as was my father-in-law. In 1965 I happened to be in Poland on business, and I was taken to see Auchswitz; I was very moved. As i entered one block, I was faced with a long table which had labels saying 'put your this or that in here'; there were three categories, but I do not remember any except for the one which said 'jewelry'. For some unknown reason I threw my watch into it - some sort of ridiculous protest I suppose. I had no idea whatsoever, but in recent years my daughter has discovered, whilst investigating my family tree, that over One hundred of my Grandmother's dutch family, who were Jewish, perished in Auchswitz, from the ages of 1 years to 80 years. They are all recorded by name. As a christian all of my life, I had been absolutely unaware.
So, as you can see, I am something of a WW11 refugee; lucky to have survived and very appreciative of those who made that possible. I now have a large family of my own, so until the likes of myself have passed, WW11 is still with us, and explains my unusual perspectives on it, I expect.
Sorry to bend your ear; just an explanation of my take ; not technical enough, I agree.:cheers:
So, as you can see, I am something of a WW11 refugee; lucky to have survived and very appreciative of those who made that possible. I now have a large family of my own, so until the likes of myself have passed, WW11 is still with us, and explains my unusual perspectives on it, I expect.
Sorry to bend your ear; just an explanation of my take ; not technical enough, I agree.:cheers:
Last edited:
Papashah41
Active member
Del Boy, Very interesting Bio. You are most definately a world traveller. I hope your uncle wasn't on the HMS Hood when it was sunk by the Bismark. When I read about your Jewish relatives I remembered a book I read some years ago about Jewish soldiers in the Heer and Waffen SS. It seems fantastic I know but as many as 200,000 Germans with Jewish blood fought for the Nazi's. They were called Mischling or Mischlinge. German's racial laws had ridiculous categories. Such as 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 Jewish and so on. Erhard Milch the creator of the Luftwaffe and second to Herman Goering was half Jewish and was catagorized as Mischling. There were some other notables but I can't recall at the moment. What really surprised me was the number of these men in the Waffen SS, especially the panzer divisions. Well, they do say it takes all kinds. I suppose the racial purity nonsence goes out the window when people can be used as cannon fodder. I almost find it comical when people attempt to hang onto something that really isn't there. And when it's nonsense like ethnic and racial purity I can't help but laugh. If anyone took the time to research, they'd realize that by the time of the Barbarian Migrations, 355 to 454 AD Europeans were quite mixed. And when you add another 1550 years I'm sure we all have quite the mix. When you mentioned people who had been prisoner's of the Japanese I recalled a neighbor of mine. I'm sure he has passed on, but his son was a friend of mine. His father was a Hong Kong vet. He showed me pictures of his father when he was returned. All I will say is the Japanese Governments should be ashamed of themselves for not compensating these men.
Last edited:
Nice one Papashah. My uncle Fred served on the Hood, but had been earmarked for submarines. Just as she sailed on her last sortie he was withdrawn to report for subs. He lost all his mates. I recently posted a photo of him and pals under the guns of the Hood. He then went down with two subs and spent days in the water each time. He was a Chief Petty Officer and eventually he survived the war. He and I were very close and during the war, when we were both in hospital , he wrote one of those official notelettes to me to keep my pecker up - I was seven; I still have it. He was a great pro boxer, and just a few years ago when we had been out of touch for a long period, he was in hospital . He lived some 150 or so miles from me, but the day before he died he muttered my name and so they sent for me. We didn't say much, but as I sat on the side of his bed and looked down, I couldn't prevent a tear rolling down my cheek, and Fred looked me in the eye and said 'Me too'. It was goodbye.
Anyway my friend, if ever I come across as a bit too strong in my comments re WW11, please understand that I mean no disrespect to forum members or their countries.
Anyway my friend, if ever I come across as a bit too strong in my comments re WW11, please understand that I mean no disrespect to forum members or their countries.
Last edited:
Papashah41
Active member
You're uncle Fred seemed to be quite the guy. You mentiomed he was a chief petty officer. One of my uncles was a chief petty officer also. His first name was Evard and he went by the handle, Rockey. He had quite the career in the RCN. But during the war he was with the Merchant Marine. He never talked of it much. But when he did, it was the experiences of a 17 year old wide eyed youth. I think the year was 1941 but a torpedo hit below his position. What and where I can't recall what he said. But he did say he messed himself and when things seemed all clear, he was quite embarrased until he found out a few of his mates had messed themselves also. I'm cleaning up the language he used. He is missed. I was wondering if you have any thing to offer about Chindits, Orde Wingate, Bill Slim and the Battles of Imphal and Kohima. This is rather new territory for me as the war against Japan never used to interest me that much. But it certainly does now.
My uncle Fred said told one of his sisters that both times he spent in the water after going down, the worst experience of the war for him was dragging guys up out of the water into the lifeboats by their hair, because often the guy he attempted to lift was no longer alive.
During the last stages of the war my home was approx 300 yards from that of Orde Wingate in Dunbar, Scotland, so I am a fan of the Chindits. I will pass on whatever I come across.
During the last stages of the war my home was approx 300 yards from that of Orde Wingate in Dunbar, Scotland, so I am a fan of the Chindits. I will pass on whatever I come across.