Blame the victim?

[Prapor]

Some here may have heard of dedovshina, a phenomenon in the Russian (and also most other former Soviet) military forces where older troops bully younger new conscripts. These days increasingly the problem is becoming ethnically charged, because conscripts from North Caucasus and those from, for example, Central Russia, have constant fights and clashes. Muslim troops refuse to do cleaning duty, because it is against the Koran for a man to do this type of work. Conflicts arise. And, usually, the Muskovites and Peterburgians get the worst of it. Our North Caucasian boys are involved in sports and martial arts since early age, they know how to fight. Moscow youth know how to drink beer, no offense to any if here, but it is true.North Caucasians also, because there are very few of us, comparatively to the Slavs, tend to hang together and defend each other. You would not see Chechens or Dargins or us Cossacks hazing our own. Russians/Slavs do, all the time. So, they lose out to North Caucasians and then complain.

I know it is wrong to blame the victim, but think yourself.

Cossacks grow up with a weapon in hand

Physically fit, involved in sports, and learn martial arts/hand-to-hand combat

Chechens, for example, grow up similarly. In North Caucasus, children take sports and martial arts trophies since early age

Combat and war are the most common skills of men. Boys grow up with one future in mind: military. Success in war brings glory. That is the way there. When Cossacks and Chechens serve together, there is no problems. There is no love, but there is a mutual respect, we see each other as equals, as warriors.

But when these... I am sorry... sissies and mommie's boys, from Moscow or wherever, come and are in the same barracks with our guys, it starts.

They are alcoholics, weak, pathetic

Yet our boys should treat them as equals? How?

They should clean themselves up, put away the bottle, lift some weights, hit the punching bag. We'll see them as our equals when they actually are.

 

[senojekips]

You should have been a photo journalist Prapor.

You write a very interesting article which I'm sure opens the eyes and educates of most of us here in the ways of the Russian Armed Forces.

 

[Prapor]

You should have been a photo journalist Prapor.

You write a very interesting article which I'm sure opens the eyes and educates of most of us here in the ways of the Russian Armed Forces.

Thank you. lol Well, I admit, I was a little drunk and also just had a fiery argument with someone just on this topic before I posted here. I suppose I may have been a little bit harsh. But it is true. North Caucasians particularly get blamed for these things way too much. Like one story I read where they talked how 10 boys from Dagestan led their entire regiment, held all of them in fear. Well, you tell me, 10 Dagestanis hold a regiment of Peterburgians, I believe it was, in fear, how does that happen? What kind of spineless little babies are they? Siberians are different, they too have balls, just like us, particularly the taezhniki, village people who were raised in the woods, as hunters. Good people, know how to survive of their own strength and wit

But people from the Central areas are hopeless... They fogot what being Russian is all about. They forgot that they descend from Varyags (Vikings), Mongols, and other fierce warrior peoples. They drink beer and cocktails, they add English words in their speech. Many are educated there and that is good. But, where they excel mentally, they let themselves go physically. This country only needs a certain number of computer geeks.

 

[LeMask]

Prapor, we all know the kind of people who are "good" in warfare. Semi-civilized people make wonderful warriors. As you said, they are tough, they are not softened by comfort, they lived a life full of hardship and they can take care of themselves... And of course, they stick together and hate their enemies enough to be fearsome in battle...

It's very very common in history. I'm not a historian, but I did explore as an example the history of the Arab conquest...
The Arab dynasties at the beginning used some very primitive and violent Arab and berber tribes to conquer lands. They were desert people. Tough as a nail. Poor, with a strong will to fight, as the winner of a war gets the spoils of battle (gold, lands, women etc...)

They conquered a large part of the known world in a few decades thank to these "semi-civilized" tribes. Then, these tribes of nomads were old and rich enough to settle. Work the lands, get involved in commerce... And with enough time. The pleasures of life, wine and the company of beautiful women softened them up enough to make them useless in battle...

If you grew up in Moscow as a spoiled kid, of course that you will be soft... And if you grew up in a warrior culture, of course that you will be a disciplined man.

But unless there is a price tag on our foreheads to give us our real value... Dont speak about equality like that. Even that drunk guy on the bench might teach you something... Maybe not about soldiering... But something else. You are a superior soldier. Maybe (yet to be proven). But does it give you the right to treat him like crap because he is a poorly disciplined soldier?

And you should fire these "Muslims" who refuse to do cleaning duties... These jerks sicken me with their halfassed understanding of their own religion. If you meet some of them morons, tell them that their prophet was cooking and cleaning up the house with his wives. He didnt sit idly while women took care of him. The Muslims I know are much more disciplined, they didnt learn about their religion from a retarded cleric from Saudi Arabia...

 

[Prapor]

Prapor, we all know the kind of people who are "good" in warfare. Semi-civilized people make wonderful warriors. As you said, they are tough, they are not softened by comfort, they lived a life full of hardship and they can take care of themselves... And of course, they stick together and hate their enemies enough to be fearsome in battle...

It's very very common in history. I'm not a historian, but I did explore as an example the history of the Arab conquest...
The Arab dynasties at the beginning used some very primitive and violent Arab and berber tribes to conquer lands. They were desert people. Tough as a nail. Poor, with a strong will to fight, as the winner of a war gets the spoils of battle (gold, lands, women etc...)

They conquered a large part of the known world in a few decades thank to these "semi-civilized" tribes. Then, these tribes of nomads were old and rich enough to settle. Work the lands, get involved in commerce... And with enough time. The pleasures of life, wine and the company of beautiful women softened them up enough to make them useless in battle...

If you grew up in Moscow as a spoiled kid, of course that you will be soft... And if you grew up in a warrior culture, of course that you will be a disciplined man.

But unless there is a price tag on our foreheads to give us our real value... Dont speak about equality like that. Even that drunk guy on the bench might teach you something... Maybe not about soldiering... But something else. You are a superior soldier. Maybe (yet to be proven). But does it give you the right to treat him like crap because he is a poorly disciplined soldier?

And you should fire these "Muslims" who refuse to do cleaning duties... These jerks sicken me with their halfassed understanding of their own religion. If you meet some of them morons, tell them that their prophet was cooking and cleaning up the house with his wives. He didnt sit idly while women took care of him. The Muslims I know are much more disciplined, they didnt learn about their religion from a retarded cleric from Saudi Arabia...

I agree, LeMask. That is why I am one of the people who are fighting for an end to mandatory conscription in Russia. I believe that in the military, like all professions, should only be people who belong there, those who want to be there. If someone is not good as a soldier, but better at computers or something, let him do that instead.

 

[LeMask]

Prapor, I do agree with you. But just hear my view on this point. What about a military service for everybody. But dont force anyone to do it. All they have to do is write a paper to say "I dont want to do my military service."

Military service, even a short and basic one, can teach men to defend themselves. To see themselves as members of a society and not lost individuals in a complex world. It will give them a view about how things are run in the government... And of course, a little discipline and a little space from the comfort we get at home so we learn to appreciate it a little better...

I dont know how things are in the Russian federation.

And I say that for two reasons. I strongly believe that turning the military into a profession is a very dangerous approach. And second, that us, civvies, have a lot to do with the military. To teach them some things and to learn from them.

When you make a military into a very special life choice... You cut them from the rest of the world. And this means that they will walk against you in some point or that you will have to walk against them at some point. I think you can find references to that in Cossack history, not?

I think that the concept of the professional soldier is a form of corruption.

For me, soldiers are the strong men equiped and prepared for warfare who have to fight in the front line. They are not the only ones supposed to fight. They are not special, they are just better prepared.

 

[Prapor]

Prapor, I do agree with you. But just hear my view on this point. What about a military service for everybody. But dont force anyone to do it. All they have to do is write a paper to say "I dont want to do my military service."

Military service, even a short and basic one, can teach men to defend themselves. To see themselves as members of a society and not lost individuals in a complex world. It will give them a view about how things are run in the government... And of course, a little discipline and a little space from the comfort we get at home so we learn to appreciate it a little better...

I dont know how things are in the Russian federation.

And I say that for two reasons. I strongly believe that turning the military into a profession is a very dangerous approach. And second, that us, civvies, have a lot to do with the military. To teach them some things and to learn from them.

When you make a military into a very special life choice... You cut them from the rest of the world. And this means that they will walk against you in some point or that you will have to walk against them at some point. I think you can find references to that in Cossack history, not?

I think that the concept of the professional soldier is a form of corruption.

For me, soldiers are the strong men equiped and prepared for warfare who have to fight in the front line. They are not the only ones supposed to fight. They are not special, they are just better prepared.

I suppose that is true. I don't know. But, as long as we have the mandarory draft, we will have these issues. It is not normal, when police drags young men off the streets into consription offices. They are turning the Army (other branches are not so bad, yet) into a prison.

 

[LeMask]

I can tell you we have the same problem here in France...

Many people, even military officers see the army as prison/factory for killers...

Recently, there was a scandal when teachers in training had a meeting before starting their training, and there was people in uniform in the amphitheater.

And they told the future teachers to guide their students (those who have problems) to join the military. (note: these are teachers supposed to work in difficult zones, like ghettos etc...)
Some teachers left the room in protest... As they were there to educate and not abandon confused kids to the military.

Some kids grow to be dangerous individuals... They are more often from areas where violence, crime and frustration are rampaging... And the governments think that these kids can be trained into soldiers so they can send them to bring havoc in enemy lands... You dont want them in your house or in your country, but to arm them and send them to destroy your enemies.

The story I told you about the Arab conquest is a good example. There was Sultan in Egypt (I believe) who had problems because of "friendly" Arab nomad tribes in his land. They were poor and they were attacking pilgrims moving through his territory to survive (they survive as bandits/raiders).

So he decided to grant them the right to cross his lands to attack the neighboring country (today's Tunisia). They accepted the title with pride and attacked his enemies, killing, raping destroying, throwing rocks in wells, burning fields etc... They were so successful that they invited their cousins to join them in the fight. So the Sultan decided to make them pay one gold piece each to cross the Nile. They paid because they knew that they could make much more money by fighting in his name against his enemies.

So in the end, this Sultan got rid of bandits in his kingdom... Added some gold to his treasury. And seriously weakened his enemies...
But I dont think it's a good thing in the long run...

Anyway, we should stop seeing soldiers as wardogs... just good enough to chew the enemy down... We live in an interconnected world today. A l4 year old girl gets rapped in Iraq by some criminals in uniform. And another kid hears the news on the Internet and blows your face while you are taking the bus to go to work... Even if you are 5000miles away from the scene...

 

[brinktk]

Professional soldiers a form of corruption...sigh...once again a fantastic statement with no evidence to back it up.

That may be how it is in France...But that is most certainly NOT how it is in the US.

 

[LeMask]

Well, you have a small part of the population holding the military power. And the rest of the population, disarmed with no military power.

You want an example, look at Libya. A few soldiers working for a dictator wasting the rest of the population because they arent equipped and trained for warfare.

This is why I said "a form" of corruption. Corruption can take many forms. But the soldier's fidelity will go to those who pay his rent first. And if he doesnt, he is disarmed and called a traitor...

And it's affecting you in the US aswell. Maybe that the situation isnt so desperate, because you can own guns. But let's be honest, if tomorrow the US army decides to take control... The civilians wont stand a chance with their light weapons... And in the future, armies will be using more and more robotic weapons. Drones, automated tanks, missiles... You saw terminator didnt you? If you think that the soldiers have families and that they wont allow that... Then you are in denial.

The only difference between me and you is that I think about the worse case scenario... So I believe that I cant rely on a professional soldier to protect me. I want to do like in these pictures. Own guns and learn about survival... And it would have been easier for me If I grew up like these kids in the picture... But I grew up with chocolate and bubble baths, I know that I'm soft... Less soft than some. But when I see hardened human beings, I know that the odds are against me if it hits the fan... I would have to do a much superior effort to get the same results... When I was younger, I broke one of my fingers punching a bully. It will be like that.

And it's not because I hate professional soldiers... No, it's because I know he is a human being, it's because he might lose the battle, he might be corrupt, he might be a criminal, he might join a dictator who will pay him more than me etc etc... Would you dare to tell me it's impossible?

I'm just talking against over-specialization.

And I would add that professional soldiers are weak. They are just human being who learned war from books and through training. Their real value in combat is a systemic value. It would take me a lot of words to explain it to you guys...

You think that these professional soldiers are useful to fix your problems because they are powerful/destructive. But it's just an illusion. They are professionals... They do this for a living...

If they werent professional soldiers, but just men and women... They would maybe settle in Afghanistan or Iraq. Marry local women/men. Share their customs and introduce theirs... And you would have a lasting peace in the future. But as they are professional soldiers. They ask for money for weapons to kill. And ask for money to build what people in Washington want them to build. And it takes huge amounts of resources to have a limited success, if any... They are not people who change their environment, they are products of a system... And the day this system will be failing. They will fail too.

And our system is failing... Maybe that you didnt notice...

 

[GHR]

You keep coming up with meaningless nonsense and accusations without foundation or proof of anything. The whole world is one big conspiracy in your head. Get a life!

 

[LeMask]

Nah, I'm not talking about a conspiracy yet. You are the one thinking about a conspiracy...

Anyway, back to our original topic.

Prapor, I want to ask you about cossacks... What can you tell me about their moral values/principles. Do they have a codified reference for ethics? something to define what is good or wrong?

I'm really ignorant about cossacks. I know about their reputation in warfare. That they are ruthless warriors... But that's it.

 

[brinktk]

Once again you prove that you have absolutely no idea how the military works. You have in your head that the military is one way, when in fact it is completely different. You will never know. How on earth can you possibly speculate on what soldiers will do when your perception of them is so contorted and inaccurate. I literally have a very hard time understanding anything you write most of the time...and I KNOW that I am an intelligent person. Sometimes I think you talk and argue just for the sake of talking and arguing.

 

[LeMask]

brinktk, maybe... yeah, maybe that my vision is innaccurate. But I know that I cant trust them. Why should I be dependent on other people for my safety?

And if I wasnt clear, I can explain myself again. But what part isnt clear for you? I spoke about many topics that deserve a lot of explaining, I know that...

Let's just say that professional soldiers are a minority and that they hold a huge destructive potential. When I see a few people holding so much power, I fear for democracy.

 

[Prapor]

brinktk, maybe... yeah, maybe that my vision is innaccurate. But I know that I cant trust them. Why should I be dependent on other people for my safety?

And if I wasnt clear, I can explain myself again. But what part isnt clear for you? I spoke about many topics that deserve a lot of explaining, I know that...

Let's just say that professional soldiers are a minority and that they hold a huge destructive potential. When I see a few people holding so much power, I fear for democracy.

Let me tell you about a soldier I know. A real soldier, a profi, a man who lives for one purpose: to serve and defend his country. My Baptized Father (Godfather, for non-Russian Orthodox Christians here), my real father's comrade-in-arms in Afghan in the 80s, proud Cossack, Guard Colonel Anatoly Lebed

Today, commander of 45th Guards Separate Special Purpose Reconnaissance Regiment of the Russian Airborne Troops (VDV), based at Kubinka, near Moscow.

Born May 10th, 1963, in Valga, then-Estonian SSR, to parents of Kuban Cossack heritage.

Joined the military in 1981, as a conscript. Right away chose the Airborne Troops. Graduated from Lomonosov aviation-technical academy in 1986, and was deployed in Afghanistan, in a helicopter regiment as a board mechanic, until 1987. After that, served in Soviet Forces Group in Germany; and in Zabaikalsky and Sibirsky military districts.

In 1994, first left the military, and worked for a Afghan War veteran's foundation. Fought in the Balkans as a pro-Serb volunteer.

In 1999, when Chechen separatists tried to invade neighboring Dagestan, Lebed buys his own equipmet and weapons and flies to Makhachkala, Dagestan where he joins the volunteer militias that defended the Republic. When the war moved, once again, on Chechen territory, Lebed went to Moscow, signed a new contract with the defense ministry, and went to Chechnya. Fought in Gudermes, Argun, participated in the last Storm of Grozny, where the separatist government was finally and completely expelled and Chechnya again, officially, became a part of the Russian Federation.

In 2003, in the mountains near Ulus-Kert, Lebed steps on a landmine, looses parts of his right foot. In a unprecedented event, the military thought him too valuable to discharge, and had a special prosthesis produced for him, allowing him to return to the ranks. In a subsequent battle, covered a young private from a enemy grenade launcher shot literaly with his own body. Was wounded in the back, but went on to lead his men to storm a terrorist base and kill a major Islamist leader. By the Order of the President of Russian Federation of April 6th, 2005, for courage and heroism in the carrying out of military duty in North Caucasus, then-captain Lebed was awarded the title Hero of Russian Federation.

In August 2008, Major Anatoly Lebed, who a year before once again officially left the service to be with his wife and two sons, puts together a squad of two dozen men, VDV veterans like himself, and they head to South Ossetia. There, near Tskhinval, in a notable incident, they approach a Russian peacekeepers' outpost that had been overrun by the Georgians. Lebed's team storms the post, retakes it, killing and wounding many of the enemy and taking their commander prisoner; frees and rearms the original garrison, and leaves to fight elsewhere in the city

Also in the battle of Tskhinval, Lebed personally destroyed 4 Georgian tanks with a off-shoulder RPG rocket launcher, and he and two of his guys commandeered another one and used it to fire on the enemy.

For his service in South Ossetia, Lebed was awarded Russia's highest military honor: the Order of Saint Georgy

President Medvedev himself handed him the Order

As he did, this is what the President said: "Today among us is an officer of Airborne specnaz, Hero of Russian Federation, Anatoly Vyacheslavovich Lebed. While participating in combat operations, he was in the heart of the fighting, and always demonstrated an example of personal courage."

Lebed has since rejoined the military, received the rank of Guard Colonel, and the command of the special recon regiment.

Awards:
Hero of Russian Federation - 2005
Order of Saint Georgy - 2008
Order of Courage - 3 times

Order of Red Star (main Soviet military order) - 3 times

Order 'For Service to the Motherland in the Armed Forces of the USSR'

Warious medals and badges.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%8C,_%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%92%D1%8F%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

Colonel Lebed, left, President Medvedev, centre, Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov, right, touring the Kubinka base.

That, LeMask, is a man I am proud to know and consider a part of my family. And, in my honest opinion, it is for these kind of men, the Russian Armed Forces should be reserved for. The kind of men who belong there. Who live to do one thing: to fight for Russia.

 

[LeMask]

Good presentation Prapor. And this looks like some intense military career. If Russia have 1.000 men as dedicated to serve, you can feel safe... He bought his own weapons to join the fight? Is it common in the area?

 

[Prapor]

Good presentation Prapor. And this looks like some intense military career. If Russia have 1.000 men as dedicated to serve, you can feel safe... He bought his own weapons to join the fight? Is it common in the area?

Well, he was a volunteer then. And, yes, if you know what you are doing, it is easy to buy weapons in Russia. You can buy some even from a army base, if you know teh right officer to approach. Otherwise, there are 'black' arms dealers all over the place.

 

[03USMC]

Well, you have a small part of the population holding the military power. And the rest of the population, disarmed with no military power.

You want an example, look at Libya. A few soldiers working for a dictator wasting the rest of the population because they arent equipped and trained for warfare.

This is why I said "a form" of corruption. Corruption can take many forms. But the soldier's fidelity will go to those who pay his rent first. And if he doesnt, he is disarmed and called a traitor...

And it's affecting you in the US aswell. Maybe that the situation isnt so desperate, because you can own guns. But let's be honest, if tomorrow the US army decides to take control... The civilians wont stand a chance with their light weapons... And in the future, armies will be using more and more robotic weapons. Drones, automated tanks, missiles... You saw terminator didnt you? If you think that the soldiers have families and that they wont allow that... Then you are in denial.

The only difference between me and you is that I think about the worse case scenario... So I believe that I cant rely on a professional soldier to protect me. I want to do like in these pictures. Own guns and learn about survival... And it would have been easier for me If I grew up like these kids in the picture... But I grew up with chocolate and bubble baths, I know that I'm soft... Less soft than some. But when I see hardened human beings, I know that the odds are against me if it hits the fan... I would have to do a much superior effort to get the same results... When I was younger, I broke one of my fingers punching a bully. It will be like that.

And it's not because I hate professional soldiers... No, it's because I know he is a human being, it's because he might lose the battle, he might be corrupt, he might be a criminal, he might join a dictator who will pay him more than me etc etc... Would you dare to tell me it's impossible?

I'm just talking against over-specialization.

And I would add that professional soldiers are weak. They are just human being who learned war from books and through training. Their real value in combat is a systemic value. It would take me a lot of words to explain it to you guys...

You think that these professional soldiers are useful to fix your problems because they are powerful/destructive. But it's just an illusion. They are professionals... They do this for a living...

If they werent professional soldiers, but just men and women... They would maybe settle in Afghanistan or Iraq. Marry local women/men. Share their customs and introduce theirs... And you would have a lasting peace in the future. But as they are professional soldiers. They ask for money for weapons to kill. And ask for money to build what people in Washington want them to build. And it takes huge amounts of resources to have a limited success, if any... They are not people who change their environment, they are products of a system... And the day this system will be failing. They will fail too.

And our system is failing... Maybe that you didnt notice...

And once again I present you.

 

[LeMask]

Prapor, I'm sure that an experienced soldier can recognize a good weapon...

But do you know many people who are ready to buy their own weapons to join a fight like that without being ordered to do so? Did he win something from the fight?

It's interesting, because we have only extremist religious fanatics, Muslims for most who are this willing to join a fight... And they do so because they think that it might buy them a place in paradise.
So what's with your godfather? He had family in the conflict area? He had to retreat because of a nagging wife (joking here)?

03USMC, thanks man, I needed a picture with colors for my resume.
Thanks for this vote of confidence. And of course... yes we can!!! Stay beautiful!!
In a normal time, I would have told you that I'm not a miracle doer... But looks like you need to have faith in me to survive your pathetic existence... So I will allow it. You welcome little buddy...

 

[Prapor]

Prapor, I'm sure that an experienced soldier can recognize a good weapon...

But do you know many people who are ready to buy their own weapons to join a fight like that without being ordered to do so? Did he win something from the fight?

It's interesting, because we have only extremist religious fanatics, Muslims for most who are this willing to join a fight... And they do so because they think that it might buy them a place in paradise.
So what's with your godfather? He had family in the conflict area? He had to retreat because of a nagging wife (joking here)?

Because he is a officer. Because he is a Cossack, even if, in the Soviet days, our ways, our dress, our culture were banned. You cannot take away what's on the inside. War is our nature. We do not run from it, we seek it out. In Cossack cadet schools, boys learn that the best, most honorable death for a Cossack, is one in battle, preferably taking many of the enemy with you, as our prayer goes

Our God Jesus Christ, one and only true God of the world, let us taste victory, and if shall our men fall, let many of the enemy fall with them

I suppose we are not that different from that Taliban in some ways after all lol