Bizarre - biblical references on Gunsights!

mmarsh said:
Once Again, the point of this is not to make the enemy feel better, its to deny the enemy the use of a propaganda tool that could be used against us.

I agree this issue is minor, but I see no reason to make the enemies job easier, even in the tinest degree.

I am glad Trijicom relented however.
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Well maybe we should all become copies of the enemy that way they will have no propaganda material at all.

Isn't part of what they hate about us the freedom to choose and express ourselves, how much of this should we give up to appease people that are never going to like us enough to stop trying to kill us?

It is very difficult for someone as close to athiest as I am to argue in favour of religious rights but as has been pointed out they have done this for the last quarter of a century and the texts that they are using are appropriate to the items they are selling.

This also brings me to a couple of questions...
1) What if some of those using the sights want to keep the quotes does religious freedom win out?

2) If one nation using the sight is happy to keep the references will they be required to remove them if serving in a Muslin country?
 
MontyB said:
Well maybe we should all become copies of the enemy that way they will have no propaganda material at all.

Isn't part of what they hate about us the freedom to choose and express ourselves, how much of this should we give up to appease people that are never going to like us enough to stop trying to kill us?

It is very difficult for someone as close to athiest as I am to argue in favour of religious rights but as has been pointed out they have done this for the last quarter of a century and the texts that they are using are appropriate to the items they are selling.

This also brings me to a couple of questions...
1) What if some of those using the sights want to keep the quotes does religious freedom win out?

2) If one nation using the sight is happy to keep the references will they be required to remove them if serving in a Muslin country?
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You are forgetting one thing, we are talking about the Army, not civilian democracy. By becoming a soldier you accept to forfeit some of your civil liberties like speech an expression and even religious freedom.
 
No, MontyB is right on the money.
It's us and our way of life that ultimately offends them.
In retrospect, although the Biblical references on the weapons could/would be used by the enemy as propaganda, they probably have plenty of other stuff anyway. Maybe it is indeed just a drop of piss in an olympic swimming sized swimming pool.
 
mmarsh said:
You are forgetting one thing, we are talking about the Army, not civilian democracy. By becoming a soldier you accept to forfeit some of your civil liberties like speech an expression and even religious freedom.
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What makes you think soldiers are denied religious freedom? I've served with practicing Jews, Muslims, Christians, atheists, agnostics, wiccans and others I probably don't recall.
 
Even in a country with an aggressive Protestant influence like South Korea there is a lot of religious freedom in the military as long as you're not an officer.
I've been to just about every different religious service provided in the South Korean military and no one really cared. A lot of guys actually did this and the NCO signing off on who was going to what religious service on Sunday knew people were switching around and couldn't care less.
 
DTop said:
What makes you think soldiers are denied religious freedom? I've served with practicing Jews, Muslims, Christians, atheists, agnostics, wiccans and others I probably don't recall.
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If I were Muslim and deployed overseas to Afghanistan but wanted to make my haj to Mecca (a several week trip), what are the odds the army would simply let me go if they really needed me to stay? Certainly the military doesnt block people from completely practicing their faith, but I dont think it grants the same religious freedoms that a civilian would enjoy either, (which is as it should be, I am not criticizing the practice).

13th Redneck

Actually both Osama and al-Zawahri have spoken about this on numerous occasions. They have stated that its the west's involvement in the Middle East and muslim affairs that angers them. A few years ago, Osama even offered a ceasefire to the USA if we withdrew support from Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I think al-Qaeda is nuts but not stupid, most of the senior leadership is well educated. Their are approximately 1 Billion Muslims in the world, but the world population is close to 8 Billion. Even al-Qaeda knows that it cannot exterminate every single non-muslim in the world. Remember the Koran preaches tolerence for other religions, which is why Osama always refers to the West as Crusaders (i.e those who war upon Islam) as a religious justification for the terrible acts he commits.

What al Qaeda has repeatively said is for the Muslims be left unto themselves, and his wish to create a large Muslim Caphiate based on 12th Century Sheria law and yes possible reconquer certain areas lost to non-Muslims. But they have never really advocated the wanton genocide or conquer of every single non-muslim nation.

Mind you before some of you have a nervous freakout, I am only quoting what THEY said, not what I believe. Please draw the distinction before you comment.
 
mmarsh said:
13th Redneck

Actually both Osama and al-Zawahri have spoken about this on numerous occasions. They have stated that its the west's involvement in the Middle East and muslim affairs that angers them. A few years ago, Osama even offered a ceasefire to the USA if we withdrew support from Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I think al-Qaeda is nuts but not stupid, most of the senior leadership is well educated. Their are approximately 1 Billion Muslims in the world, but the world population is close to 8 Billion. Even al-Qaeda knows that it cannot exterminate every single non-muslim in the world. Remember the Koran preaches tolerence for other religions, which is why Osama always refers to the West as Crusaders (i.e those who war upon Islam) as a religious justification for the terrible acts he commits.

What al Qaeda has repeatively said is for the Muslims be left unto themselves, and his wish to create a large Muslim Caphiate based on 12th Century Sheria law and yes possible reconquer certain areas lost to non-Muslims. But they have never really advocated the wanton genocide or conquer of every single non-muslim nation.

Mind you before some of you have a nervous freakout, I am only quoting what THEY said, not what I believe. Please draw the distinction before you comment.
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Well we really should be doing all we can to placate Al Qaeda hell if all they want to do is plunge half the world back 800 years and invade a few countries what are we worried about clearly they have peaceful intentions and the world was just so much more peaceful and tolerant 800 years ago.

Maybe Obama can return from Mecca waving a piece of paper and declaring "Peace in our time" like some other truly inspirational leader did 70 years ago although I think he came from Munich.
 
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If I were Muslim and deployed overseas to Afghanistan but wanted to make my haj to Mecca (a several week trip), what are the odds the army would simply let me go if they really needed me to stay? Certainly the military doesnt block people from completely practicing their faith, but I dont think it grants the same religious freedoms that a civilian would enjoy either, (which is as it should be, I am not criticizing the practice).
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As a Christian I couldn't up and leave for a visit to the Holy Land every Easter either. It's just a matter of practicality and not one of giving up or being banned from religion. So, no being in the military and being religious are not mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination.
 
DTop said:
As a Christian I couldn't up and leave for a visit to the Holy Land every Easter either. It's just a matter of practicality and not one of giving up or being banned from religion. So, no being in the military and being religious are not mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination.
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Yes but in my example, the Haj is a religious requirement of all Muslims as written in the Koran. The Bible does not require a christian to visit the Holy Land, that is strictly optional. And if push came to shove which would the Army respect more? The needs of the Army? or the respecting the religious requirements of its soldiers.

Ill grant you that from what I can tell the army does a good job of trying to respect an individuals religious freedom, but like many things in military life there are limits to a persons freedom compared to a civilian.
 
mmarsh said:
Yes but in my example, the Haj is a religious requirement of all Muslims as written in the Koran. The Bible does not require a christian to visit the Holy Land, that is strictly optional. And if push came to shove which would the Army respect more? The needs of the Army? or the respecting the religious requirements of its soldiers.

Ill grant you that from what I can tell the army does a good job of trying to respect an individuals religious freedom, but like many things in military life there are limits to a persons freedom compared to a civilian.
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Well then, my question would be, why would someone with a such a strict religious requirement even consider enlisting? BTW there are many Muslims serving in our military today. The answer is simple, they don't consider is a forfeiture of their freedom to practice their religion.
 
the haj is a once in a life time requirement.
they can go when they are discharged, so all in all not a very good/likely excuse.
 
captiva303 said:
the haj is a once in a life time requirement.
they can go when they are discharged, so all in all not a very good/likely excuse.
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Partially true...you are required to go AT LEAST once. The requirement is actually as you are physically and financially able to make the trip. So if you have the means to go every year then that is what Islam expects of you.

But this is really just an example to prove a greater point. I could have used another like Orthodox Jews requirement that no work be done at all on the Sabbath (which is Saturday). Could you imagine what the Armys response would be if Orthodox Jewish soldiers said "sorry cant go on patrol today Sarge...its the Sabbath".

The point I am making is that military life can have an impact on religious freedom and thats why military requirements must come BEFORE religous freedom. The Arabs seized upon the fact that the entire country was at temple to launch a surprise attack during the Yom Kippur War and I think Isreal learned a valuable lesson from this as they do not let their guard down during the holidays. You simply cant let religion come before military necessity, otherwise the result could be disasterous.
 
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well alot of Muslims count their requirements of work and daily life as a factor when they decide if they are physically capable of doing it.

but the jewish analogy is a much better example...
i would hate to think what would come next in that convosation.
 
mmarsh said:
The point I am making is that military life can have an impact on religious freedom and thats why military requirements must come BEFORE religous freedom. The Arabs seized upon the fact that the entire country was at temple to launch a surprise attack during the Yom Kippur War and I think Isreal learned a valuable lesson from this as they do not let their guard down during the holidays. You simply cant let religion come before military necessity, otherwise the result could be disasterous.
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That's the key, an impact. Speaking from personal experience, military life is different but one need not forfeit practicing one's religion by any means.
 
OK we all know that I'm as religious as a dead cat, so I hope I can ask thsi without anybody thinking that I lean toward any religion at all.


If they kill us in the name of Allah, why can't we kill them in the name of God? I mean they already think its a holy war so whats the difference? Granted I don't agree with any religious symbols, words, or pictures on any military weapons, but either way were the bad guys here so who cares? I'f sombody wants a buible verse on his personal weapon let him have it, If not Remove it.
 
wolfen said:
OK we all know that I'm as religious as a dead cat, so I hope I can ask thsi without anybody thinking that I lean toward any religion at all.


If they kill us in the name of Allah, why can't we kill them in the name of God? I mean they already think its a holy war so whats the difference? Granted I don't agree with any religious symbols, words, or pictures on any military weapons, but either way were the bad guys here so who cares? I'f sombody wants a buible verse on his personal weapon let him have it, If not Remove it.
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I think we expect ourselves to adhere to a higher standard.
 
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