Ayan Hirsi Ali gong to the US

Italian Guy said:
You think I haven't? ;)

Apologies offered.
I am glad you are a Hitchens loving conservative! :bravo:

Back to the topic: One day so soon the US of A will be the only force standing against the evil of radical Islam because Islam has already swept Europe away and EU should now be called Eurabia.
 
phoenix80 said:
Apologies offered.
I am glad you are a Hitchens loving conservative! :bravo:

Back to the topic: One day so soon the US of A will be the only force standing against the evil of radical Islam because Islam has already swept Europe away and EU should now be called Eurabia.

Hahahahaha you're right Phoenix. At work we all received a mail stating the we have to be circumsized. We are also not allowed to shave anymore..... So yep, I definately have become a radical muslim!
 
Ted said:
Hahahahaha you're right Phoenix. At work we all received a mail stating the we have to be circumsized. We are also not allowed to shave anymore..... So yep, I definately have become a radical muslim!

then seriously you all have to think about the failed state of Eurabia and get ur continent back from the islamofascists
 
But Phoenix we are not about to render our shared identitiy to some Islamofascists. Sure, we try to incorporate the muslim man in the street into our society. And yes... we do grant them certain liberties. But on a whole we still remain very Dutch. As long as we outnumber them 1 : 10 I am not too worried and yes, we do keep an eye on things. In certain cases I tend to think that PC is about to dump us into the pit, but 'till now these are just hot air ballons from somebody who clearly wan't awake..
 
Last time i checked the muslims in Europe were poorer than the average citizen and had little power in government or social issues. They're sort of like the latinos in the USA where there's a little distrust of them, but we know they seek to improve their quality of life here which is a good thing since they'll have more gratitude towards us in the long run.

Hirsi is an example of a muslim who wanted to help her country and wants to westernize the muslims so that they too can enjoy a higher quality life, that's not so bad. Once a few generations pass the European muslims will be much more integrated and hopefully accepted into society.
 
But the trouble starts when 2nd and 3rd genration muslims start to become violet opponents of the society they live in. If you want to send them back, they end up in Holland, for example. They talk Dutch, have a Dutch pasport and have no real link with their country of descend. Yoou can´t deport those, because they are more Dutch then they would like to think...
Trouble is, they have been here for almost 50 years and show little inclination to become more Dutch then they are at this moment... and that worries me!
 
If you want muslims to become more dutch in your country then maybe there should be more openess in helping them out. You can't blame them solely for not integrating, there has to be a way for them be more comfortable in your country. I know that there's feelings of the muslims going against the national will of their host european nations, but they're there and people can change their attitudes that. What would you rather have, muslims who after decades have no care for their country, or ones that feel accepted and a part of their european society. Don't get me wrong, a part of the reason the muslims are so conservative is that new immigrants reinforce the beliefs of the old ones. Maybe a better immigration policy can settle down the ones who are already there and they can adapt.
 
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WarMachine said:
If you want muslims to become more dutch in your country then maybe there should be more openess in helping them out. You can't blame them solely for not integrating, there has to be a way for them be more comfortable in your country. I know that there's feelings of the muslims going against the national will of their host european nations, but they're there and people can change their attitudes that. What would you rather have, muslims who after decades have no care for their country, or ones that feel accepted and a part of their european society. Don't get me wrong, a part of the reason the muslims are so conservative is that new immigrants reinforce the beliefs of the old ones. Maybe a better immigration policy can settle down the ones who are already there and they can adapt.

I hear you WarMachine, but the whole thing turned into a chicken-egg discussion. Many especially Maroccan youths place themselves outside society and show petty criminal behaviour. Many schools and employers aren't too fond of them. So they are expelled and not given the job opening.
They on their turn say; we are outcasts and nobody wants us. They are right too, but how do you explain this. Who is right? This is where I turned more conservative then I used to be. In school I saw many of these kids stick together and wanting a solution for the whole lot. They didn't think of the individual approach, each and everyone has a value. But they have to work for themselves to raise their value. This isn' done by us the Dutch society!
 
We have the same problem here with immigrants and minorities that feel excluded and they have to look out for themselves. It's a very bad idea to keep them that way because then they'll never adapt to mainstream society. A simple thing to do would be to introduce them into a community and they can help out around their neighborhoods and make them feel part of their surroundings. Little things like that add up. I'm betting a lot of muslims there are poor so they don't live in the nicest of places, but there'll always be genitrification when their wealth starts growing. Hirsi would've been a good role model to the muslims in the netherlands, it's this kind of counterintuitive thinking that will make it that much harder for muslims to get along.
 
WarMachine said:
Hirsi would've been a good role model to the muslims in the netherlands, it's this kind of counterintuitive thinking that will make it that much harder for muslims to get along.

It´s funny you should bring this up. She actually was a goof role model for muslim women; she was emancipated, realized her set goals and was highly educated. The troubles started when she became very outspoken against the Islam. This put these women in a situation where they had to choose between their family (read religion on a whole) and Ali´s position. Hirshi made it into a them or me debated, burning the bridges between to two poles. Most emancipating muslim women weren´t ready to cross this bridge and now Ali burned them. I think her radicalisation did more damage then if she had taken it step for step.
 
Well people in the US beware! She made the news again today by demanding that the Dutch government is going to pay for her protection detail in the States. So she gets to badmouth entire people on her own accord and wants the Dutch taxpayer to pay for it. I don't think so.

Next thing you know is that she''l start badmouthing them Hillbillies and demands that you good tax-paying people also pay for her protection.... oh, and off course an acceptable house and car. But that is obvious!
 
Dutch Courage

Holland's latest insult to Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, May 22, 2006, at 11:44 AM ET



[FONT=arial, helvetica]Ayaan Hirsi Ali[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]
[/FONT]In the two weeks since I wrote about the increasing isolation of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-born Dutch parliamentarian, her isolation has markedly increased. Dutch courts have already required her to vacate her home as a result of her neighbors' petition to have her evicted, and she was on the verge of resigning her seat in the Dutch parliament and of requesting the right of residence in the United States. But this was not enough to satisfy her critics. A leftist news team in the Netherlands has broadcast an item about the way in which she had initially entered the country, and now the immigration minister has proposed stripping her of citizenship (and thus of her seat in parliament) as a result of the irregularities involved.

The Hague is a much less surreal place than Prague, but there are elements of this proceeding that might have made Franz Kafka smile. Unlike Joseph K, Hirsi Ali is very well aware of the evidence against her; indeed, she is the author of it. She has several times explained, in public and in print, that, among other things, she changed her name to get political asylum in the Netherlands. This was partly to prevent her family—her father being a well-known Somali politician—from discovering her whereabouts after she had fled an arranged marriage to a distant relative. The minister in the present case—a former prison warden named Rita Verdonk—comes off less as a Kafka figure than as a cross between Nurse Ratched and Capt. Renault in Casablanca, who was "shocked, shocked" to find out what was going on at Rick's Cafe. A prisoner of her own rectitude, she has decided that now is the time to display zero tolerance for refugees who falsify their biographies. She has also decided that someone who was quietly leaving anyway must also be kicked out. It reminds me of those cults and sects from which it is impossible to resign, because if you say you want to quit, you will instead be expelled.

Writing in the New York Times last Friday, Ian Buruma said that Ayaan Hirsi Ali ought to have spoken out more for those who had been denied asylum in the Netherlands. (He is the author of a forthcoming book about the murder of Theo van Gogh, who was Hirsi Ali's partner in the making of a film about the maltreatment of women in the Muslim ghettos of Dutch cities.) This point doesn't seem to me to carry much weight. If she had become the spokeswoman for other refugees, her own story of making a partially false application could (and would) have been used against her even more. Instead, she pointed out that many perfectly legal immigrants to Holland were trying to import dictatorship rather than flee from it, and for this she attracted lethal hatred. If it had not been this charge, it would have been something else. She has already been made the object of a murder campaign, put under virtual house arrest in the name of her own "protection," evicted from her home, and accused of all manner of incitement. I hardly think that her numberless enemies would have left it at that. And they have now chosen to invoke the full and literal letter of the law, with exactly the same consistency with which they used to overlook it.

In point of fact, as was said several times in heated debate in the Dutch parliament, the discovery of a false statement on an immigration form (even when the proof is not provided by the person concerned, as in this case) is not automatic grounds for the removal of citizenship. The minister has discretion in the matter. Perhaps the fact that Verdonk and Hirsi Ali are members of the same party has something to do with it: Verdonk is thereby avoiding any insinuation of favoritism toward a colleague. But all this pedantry and bureaucratic legalism cannot obscure the main point, which is that an elected politician with an important and individual message has been hounded to the point where she feels that she must resign and told that whether she resigns or not, she will be dismissed. The Dutch voters who elected and re-elected her are mere spectators to the process.

Once again to mention her excellent new book The Caged Virgin, this is an author and a politician who has made the transition from early Islamic fanaticism (she initially endorsed the fatwa against Salman Rushdie) to a full-out acceptance and advocacy of secularism and of Enlightenment ideals. Hirsi Ali calls for a pluralist democracy where all opinion is protected but where the law does not—in the name of some pseudo-tolerance—permit genital mutilation, "honor" killing, and forced marriage. One might have expected a more robust defense of this position from the Dutch, and indeed the international left, but instead there has been a response of extraordinary and sullen ungenerousness, as if a lone woman defying taboo and standing up to violence has in some way let down the side and become a menace to multiculturalism.

It will be delightful to have Ayaan Hirsi Ali in Washington. But the American Enterprise Institute, which has offered her a perch, is not the place where she is most needed. In Holland, every day, extremist imams preach intolerance and cruelty, and, when they are criticized, invoke the help of foreign embassies to bring pressure on the Dutch authorities. They face no risk of expulsion. In my youth, the action of lighting one person's cigarette with another was called—don't ask me why—a "Dutch f***." I once heard a young lady, offered a light in those terms, respond loftily by saying, "Doesn't say much for the Low Countries, does it?" No, it didn't, and neither does this mean and petty harassment of a woman who has also redefined that old expression "Dutch courage."


Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair. His most recent book is Thomas Jefferson: Author of America. His most recent collection of essays is titled Love, Poverty, and War.
 
Well , I have to admit that this article has some worth to it. But it leaves out one important part, at least in my opinion. It says that Rita Verdonk did what she did to avoid favouritism. The fact is that this is a one womans´s action! I can´t stress the fact enough that the constituents, the membres of parliament and her party and the other partie members aren´t of any importance in this story.
The author plays his card like most Dutch people agree, but that is not the case. Alas, Verdonk condemned Ali herself! And no one else. By handing Ali to the judge, he had to make a case out of it. Rita woke up the sleeping dog which nobody was eager to wake!
 
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