Attack to Union Soviet instead of US

H

hamidreza

Active member
If Japan attacked to Union Soviet instead of US ( in coordination with Germany) what would been happened at the end of war and how were the victorious of war?
 
Last edited:
1)Japan would be defeated by the SU
2)Pearl Harbour would be impossible,and Japan would have to capitulate to the US in 1941/1942.
Considering 1 and 2,it would be very unwise of Japan to attack the SU in 1941.
 
Had the Japanese attacked The Soviet Union , even with Germany attacking from the west , Japan`s problem would have remained unchanged viz- a viz raw materials , America had already imposed a strict ban on raw materials to Japan , and with a war with the Chinese already consuming large amounts of material , and no heavy tanks , a long stretching supply line , enough fuel to last the Imperial Navy six months , a war with Russia was not an option , Japan needed , the raw materials the Dutch East Indies could supply her The American embargo alone would have probably been enough on it`s own to bring Japan to her knees had she gone to war with the Soviet Union . For the Soviets , though I believe they would have contained the Japanese , the result of Japan`s decision not to invade allowed Stalin to release thousands of Siberian troops from his eastern border to the battle of Moscow . The war for Japan was the need for raw materials .
 
In my opinion the best and probably only help the Japanese could have given the Germans was to leave the Russians believing they might be going to attack, this would have tied down Russian forces in the east and made life a little easier for the Germans.

The question I have when looking at the idea of Japan attacking Russia is what would have been in it for them, the areas they would have been trying to conquer were at that stage the least developed and under resourced parts of Russia.
 
The Russian took the Japanese troops apart in 1945 and attacked them with such force and determination they collapsed like a pack of cards. The Japanese would have folded in the finish as like the Germans they would have run out of men trying to fight on to many fronts and also garrisoning the the ground that they had taken
 
LeEnfield said:
The Russian took the Japanese troops apart in 1945 and attacked them with such force and determination they collapsed like a pack of cards. The Japanese would have folded in the finish as like the Germans they would have run out of men trying to fight on to many fronts and also garrisoning the the ground that they had taken
Click to expand...

The Russians and Japanese fought a few battles well before 1945 though, for example the battle of Khalkhin Gol (May-June 1939) where the Japanese came off second best and before that there were border clashes resulting in the Battle of Lake Khasan (July-August 1938).

Prior to this was the June 1937, Kanchazu island Incident where the Japanese sunk a Russian patrol boat after Russian troops occupied Kanchazu island.
 
Because of prolonging the war and Allied countries helps, German troops become invalid. By blitz attacks from west and east by Germany and Japan, I guess the Russia couldn’t stand up more than one year. Moscow was rescued by the Siberian troops and if these troops got involved by Japans soldiers and if Hitler attacked to Moscow directly instead of deadly and useless wars in other cities (attack to head of snake instead of her body), Soviet Union would have been defeated. If this happened, the final victory was in German hands.
 
The problem is that there is nothing to say that the Soviet Union would have surrendered had Moscow fallen, there appears to be two schools of thought on this issue:
1) Stalin vowed to stay in Moscow and fight to the end, had this happened then I think there is a good chance they would have sued for peace without Stalin at the head.

2) Stalin leaves Moscow and the Russians launch their winter offensive against an over stretched and exhausted Army Group Centre in much the same way they did against the German 6th Army at Stalingrad an enveloping pincer movement, given the size of the salient it is entirely possible they would suffer the same fate as the 6th Army.

I think it is fair to say that Moscow is probably the lynch pin of the Russian transport system in the region so it may have been difficult for the Red Army to get into position for such an attack however the Red Army was well known for its ability to improvise (as evidenced in books by Antony Beevor and Erhard Raus who should know as he was there).
 
Last edited:
hamidreza said:
Because of prolonging the war and Allied countries helps, German troops become invalid. By blitz attacks from west and east by Germany and Japan, I guess the Russia couldn’t stand up more than one year. Moscow was rescued by the Siberian troops and if these troops got involved by Japans soldiers and if Hitler attacked to Moscow directly instead of deadly and useless wars in other cities (attack to head of snake instead of her body), Soviet Union would have been defeated. If this happened, the final victory was in German hands.
Click to expand...
The old myth of the Siberian troops :a postwar invention :mrgreen:
Japan was as that capable to start a blitzattack,as ...... (you can choose) to become president of the US .
 
The problem is that there is nothing to say that the Soviet Union would have surrendered had Moscow fallen, there appears to be two schools of thought on this issue:
1) Stalin vowed to stay in Moscow and fight to the end, had this happened then I think there is a good chance they would have sued for peace without Stalin at the head.

2) Stalin leaves Moscow and the Russians launch their winter offensive against an over stretched and exhausted Army Group Centre in much the same way they did against the German 6th Army at Stalingrad an enveloping pincer movement, given the size of the salient it is entirely possible they would suffer the same fate as the 6th Army.

I think it is fair to say that Moscow is probably the lynch pin of the Russian transport system in the region so it may have been difficult for the Red Army to get into position for such an attack however the Red Army was well known for its ability to improvise (as evidenced in books by Antony Beevor and Erhard Raus who should know as he was there).
Click to expand...
I think Moscow’s conquest wouldn’t have been a problem for Germany. At that time (31 Oct.) only 90000 soldiers and 150 Tanks were ready to defend Moscow. And the other cities weren’t in better condition such as Leningrad and Kiev.
Moscow would have defeated or their people would have died by German surrounding if Siberian troops hadn’t come on time. 11 Army consist of 30 Siberian Division who were completely familiar with cold weather.
And why they come? Because they were assured of the East side. Siberian troops were formed to deal against Japan possible attack. At that time there was an agreement between Japan and Germany that Japan wasn’t obligate to attack to Siberia. This report was sent to Moscow by a spy (Richard Svrzh) at that time and I think because of that the war fate changed.
And I want to say another thing. Moscow is different with Leningrad or Kiev. Moscow’s fall as the capital of SU could have had bad effect on Russia people spirit.
 
Last edited:
1) The 11 Army was a part of the NortWestern Front,which was not defending Moscow
2)The 11 Army NEVER counted 30 divisions (NO Soviet Army ever counted 30 divisions)
3) There never were 30 Siberian divisions on the frontline in 1941 (and,even for the whole war)
4)Between august and december 1941,15 divisions were transferred to the west,of which THREE Siberian one ,TWO of them were going to the Western front)
5)Not only the Siberian divisions were familiair with cold weather,but also the divisions of European Russia,and even the Germans on 1 december 1941,the Red Army had a frontstrength of 4 million,the overwhelming majority of which were born in the regions west of the Ural,and in these regions,it could be very cold in the winter
 
1) The 11 Army was a part of the NortWestern Front,which was not defending Moscow
2)The 11 Army NEVER counted 30 divisions (NO Soviet Army ever counted 30 divisions)
3) There never were 30 Siberian divisions on the frontline in 1941 (and,even for the whole war)
4)Between august and december 1941,15 divisions were transferred to the west,of which THREE Siberian one ,TWO of them were going to the Western front)
5)Not only the Siberian divisions were familiair with cold weather,but also the divisions of European Russia,and even the Germans on 1 december 1941,the Red Army had a frontstrength of 4 million,the overwhelming majority of which were born in the regions west of the Ural,and in these regions,it could be very cold in the winter
Click to expand...
"In little over a month the Soviets organized eleven new armies which included 30 divisions of Siberian troops. These had been freed from the Soviet far east as Soviet intelligence had assured Stalin there was no longer a threat from the Japanese. With the Siberian forces came over 1,000 tanks and 1,000 aircraft."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa
check it.
 
I expected that the source was Wiki :the reliability of Wiki is not reliable .
1) The strenght of the Far eastern front on 22 june 1941 was 500000 men and 23 divisions,thus it was impossible that 30 divisions were sent to the west
2)The SU mobilised some 300 divisions in the second half of 1941,and did send an average of 1 million men to the front in 1941
3) The following sources are debunking the Wiki article :
Operation Barbarossa Mythbusters 3 :the Siberian division myth
Axis History Forum:view topic php?f=79&t=149223(Soviet Far East)
Axis History Forum:viewtopic?f=79&t=131052&start=0
4)As Siberia and the Far East were very scarcely populated,90 % of the Soviet units that were mobilised after 22 june 1941,were coming from European Russia
5)The theory that Stalin was withholding his reserves till his "superspy" Sorge had informed him that Japan would not attack him,is one of the biggest hoaxes of WWII
 
The only way that Germany and Japan could defeat the Soviet Union was a war just between those nations. No WWII.

But as der alte said, Japan needed the resources from the DEI desperately. So, even without a Pearl Harbor attack a war with the US was inevitable because the Japs needed to occupy the Phillipines to have a safe shipping line from the DEI to Japan. The Japs would then be up against a full strenght US fleet.The same for the region Singapure, but with the British.
Roosevelt would still be happy to sell weapons to Stalin.

I think no matter how you look at WWII , the Germans and Japs were doomed, it was only a matter of time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top