Arming police is backward step (UK needs help)

[5.56X45mm]

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinio....aspx?id=509975
Arming police is backward step

Published on 14/06/2007

IT is understandable that calls have gone up this week for the wholesale arming of the police in the wake of the killing of PC Jonathan Henry just minutes after he had come on duty.

But I think it would be a disastrous step. There is no evidence that recent and still mercifully rare murders of police officers would have been prevented had they been carrying guns.

Don’t let us go down the American route where arming the police has arguably led to more deaths.

Up to 400 fatal shootings a year and the murder of 50 officers hardly represents a successful policy.

Highly trained armed response officers in this country can get it wrong as the shooting of a Brazilian electrician on the London Underground in 2005 illustrated.

In the aftermath of a major terror attack on the capital, police wrongly thought he was a suicide bomber.

Even with its occasional flaws, we do need an armed response facility. But it would be totally wrong to start dishing out guns to your average bobby. In any case does the ordinary copper WANT to be armed? I doubt it.

Policing in this country is about trust and building public confidence. American cop shootouts may be all right for television, but not here please.

It's too easy, after a high profile tragedy, to start calling for the arming of the police. This is not the sort of decision to be taken emotionally.

The day our police take to the streets with guns bulging from their holsters will be a huge backward step for law enforcement-and it will probably make us and the police less safe than we are now.


Email:
news@cumbrian-newspapers.co.uk


Okay, maybe the anti-gunners in UK will never understand. That society works two ways.

1. Understanding
2. Force

Criminals understand number two.

 

[Del Boy]

My problem at present is that in this country only the criminals are armed and they are armed to the teeth.

 

[MontyB]

My problem at present is that in this country only the criminals are armed and they are armed to the teeth.

Got a question for you:
How much of the UK's police work on foot these days (i.e PC Plodd walking a neighbourhood patrol)?

The reason I ask this is that I think you will find that much like New Zealand who's police officers are also technically unarmed more and more patrol work is done by vehicle and those vehicles are equipped with at least one firearm.

 

[Del Boy]

That's not the case here. Of course we have specialist armed response units, but no one is allowed to own arms and our criminal gangs have a choice of the best available with which to shoot people down on the streets.

Being under violent seige in your home, even for an old woman, for example, is not usually enough to gain a police response at the time. Perhaps a visit to discuss it next day. This appears to be the scene according to reports.

Certainly my case of a few days ago, which involved a violent drunk trying to kick my front door in, was reported but did not warrant a visit.

 

[5.56X45mm]

Certainly my case of a few days ago, which involved a violent drunk trying to kick my front door in, was reported but did not warrant a visit.

Man, I cannot believe that.....

You're telling me that the police do not respond to some calls? As a police officer, I get dispatched to the most mundane calls. I mean something as useless and wasteful of police as a citizen locked out of their car. (We have slim jims and can open a car. So we get dispatched to open cars.)

So UK Police will not come by if you guys call 911 (I don't know what the UK version is) and tell the dispatcher that someone is kicking your door?

Man, if sh!t like that happened here in the states we'd all be fired and probably have our certifications stripped because we didn't protect and serve the citizenary.

The UK sounds like one crappy place to live....

Secert Police type tactics. Flying spybots watching your every move, cameras on every street corner, police having reasons to enter your house without any warrant, self defense being against the law, etc....

 

[Missileer]

Politicians love disarmed peasants.

 

[MontyB]

Politicians love disarmed peasants.

Why?

I am interested in why you fear your government enough to require weapons to keep them at bay.

I could understand it in countries that are not inherently democratic in process but in most developed, educated and politically stable countries the general population isn't arming itself on the off chance the government comes after them.

 

[5.56X45mm]

Why?

I am interested in why you fear your government enough to require weapons to keep them at bay.

I could understand it in countries that are not inherently democratic in process but in most developed, educated and politically stable countries the general population isn't arming itself on the off chance the government comes after them.

Nazi Germany
Soviet Russia
Communist Cuba
Communist Vietnam
Communist China
Khmer Rouge of Cambodia
Islamic Iran
Kuwait under Saddam
North Korea
KKK

Shall I continue?

The reason is because an armed citizenary keeps the damn government in check. Threat of rebellion and overthrow keeps governments from becoming corrupt.

Nazi Germany Disarmed the Jews
Soviet Russia disarmed those against communism
Castro disarmed those against his regime
The KKK disarmed blacks during the Jim Crow era
The Islamofacist in Iran disarmed those against them


History is the best teacher....

 

[5.56X45mm]

MontyB, I don't know how things work for you but here in the States. We enjoy our freedoms from a corrupt government. We kicked the damn British out by force not by letting them leave when they got tired with us.

Armed men are citizens
Disarmed men are subjects

 

[MontyB]

Nazi Germany
Soviet Russia
Communist Cuba
Communist Vietnam
Communist China
Khmer Rouge of Cambodia
Islamic Iran
Kuwait under Saddam

Shall I continue?

And you think that public will elect any of these guys anytime soon because if I am not mistaken all but one of those ( Kuwait under Saddam) were populist armed revolutions and are all very good reasons why the population should be disarmed.

In the interests of fairness though yes you should continue but please find better examples.

MontyB, I don't know how things work for you but here in the States. We enjoy our freedoms from a corrupt government.

Well we found it best not to elect corrupt governments (incompetent maybe but not corrupt) but each to his own.

We kicked the damn British out by force not by letting them leave when they got tired with us.

Well we just said hey we dont need British rule anymore thanks, cya later and strangely enough New Zealand is an independant sovreign nation go figure.

Armed men are citizens
Disarmed men are subjects

Yes revolutionaries and terrorists are also armed men kind of interesting how it works both ways.

 

[5.56X45mm]

Hitler took guns away after he was elected

The Islamofacist in Iran stripped the weapons from citizenary that placed them in power after they took root

Castro disarmed the Cuba people after he took over on Januray 1st 1959

Before the Soviet Revolution, citizenary in Imperial Russia (which wasn't that great) were able to own firearms. After the Soviets took over, that was pver and the Gulags became very popular.

Communist North Vietnam disarmed those in the South because they feared of a underground partisan movement.

Communist China did the samething.

So did Pol Pot in Cambodia.

If you want to live in a socialist police state where Big Government watches you every move for your "own" safety. Please do so. But don't damn do it where I live.




[

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. If the middle classes render voluntary help to Government in the hour of its trial, distrust will disappear, and the ban on possessing arms will be withdrawn." Mohandas K. Gandhi, Autobiography: The Story of My Experiments with Truth, Chapter XXVII, Recruiting Campaign, Page 403, Dover paperback edition, 1983.

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." ("General Introduction to Psychoanalysis," S. Freud)

"You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." Advising Japan's military leaders of the futility of an invasion of the mainland United States because of the widespread availability of guns. It has been theorized that this was a major contributing factor in Japan's decision not to land on North America early in the war when they had vastly superior military strength. This delay gave our industrial infrastructure time to gear up for the conflict and was decisive in our later victory.

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens.

"All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party." (Problems of War and Strategy, Nov 6 1938, published in "Selected Works of Mao Zedong," 1965)

"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)

“There's no question that weapons in the hands of the public have prevented acts of terror or stopped them.”

"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step – in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come – is to teach men to shoot!" – President Theodore Roosevelt's last message to Congress.

"The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

"One of the arguments that had been made against gun control was that an armed citizenry was the final bulwark against tyranny. My response had been that untrained, lightly-armed non-soldiers couldn't prevail against a modern army. I had concluded that the qualitative difference in firepower was such that all of the previous rules of guerilla war no longer applied. Both Vietnam and Afghanistan demonstrated that wasn't true. Repelling an armed invasion is not something that American citizens are likely to face, but the possibility of a despotic government coming to power is not wholly unthinkable. One of the sequellae of Vietnam was the rise of the Khmer Rouge and slaughter of perhaps a million Cambodian citizens. Those citizens, like the Jews in Germany or the Armenians in Turkey, were unarmed and thus utterly and completely defenseless against police and paramilitary. An armed minority was able to kill and terrorize unarmed victims with total impunity." – Paul Hagar, "Why I Carry"

"Hoplophobia is a mental disturbance characterized by irrational aversion to weapons, as opposed to justified apprehension about those who may wield them." Jeff Cooper, To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth

 

[Missileer]

Why?

I am interested in why you fear your government enough to require weapons to keep them at bay.

I could understand it in countries that are not inherently democratic in process but in most developed, educated and politically stable countries the general population isn't arming itself on the off chance the government comes after them.

The Founding Fathers were very careful to assure that our own government would not become a threat to citizens.

"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny, or private self defense." --John Adams

"The principal foundations of all states are good laws and good arms; and there cannot be good laws where there are not good arms. --Niccolo Machiavelli

"Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness." --George Washington

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?" --Thomas Jefferson

"I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive." --Thomas Jefferson

 

[MontyB]

Hitler took guns away after he was elected

The Islamofacist in Iran stripped the weapons from citizenary that placed them in power after they took root

Castro disarmed the Cuba people after he took over on Januray 1st 1959

Before the Soviet Revolution, citizenary in Imperial Russia (which wasn't that great) were able to own firearms. After the Soviets took over, that was pver and the Gulags became very popular.

Communist North Vietnam disarmed those in the South because they feared of a underground partisan movement.

Communist China did the samething.

So did Pol Pot in Cambodia.

If you want to live in a socialist police state where Big Government watches you every move for your "own" safety. Please do so. But don't damn do it where I live.

And you think that Gulags and underground movements will spring up in the USA if the population is exposed to gun control?

I am sorry your all or nothing arguments dont carry a whole lot of realism.

Incidently your persistence with the "fear of guns" counter argument is patently ludicrous and I can only assume generated from a lack of real arguments as I am not afraid of weapons hell I own almost 50 of them I just choose not to idolise them in the same way you do and I strongly doubt very many of the pro-gun control lobby fear weapons either.

 

[5.56X45mm]

Wait?!?!?!?! You own firearms yet you always say that folks should be disarmed, that folks shouldn't be able to own them, guns are bad, folks owning guns are evil, guns have no use in society, etc.....

Seems a little hypocritical.

 

[MontyB]

Wait?!?!?!?! You own firearms yet you always say that folks should be disarmed, that folks shouldn't be able to own them, guns are bad, folks owning guns are evil, guns have no use in society, etc.....

Seems a little hypocritical.

On the contrary I have never said people should be disarmed I have said firearms should be restricted and controlled (licensed preferably) but not banned. If I was the man in charge you would be allowed to own anything you liked (within reason of course) as long as you were licensed and it was registered with a local authority and stored appropriately.

See I dont believe that people who own guns are dangerous I believe people that idolise guns such as yourself are dangerous because to me my firearms collection is for interest and enjoyment (pig or deer hunting the odd pistol or blackpowder shoot), they rate no higher on my list of chatels than diving gear or a tennis racket and oddly enough I can live quite happily without them.

I do not own weapons because I fear my government because I elected my government they can fear me, I do not need weapons to protect myself from invasion because we have a military for that and they are far better equiped and trained than I so in the end I own firearms for enjoyment and little else.

 

[Del Boy]

Man, I cannot believe that.....

You're telling me that the police do not respond to some calls? As a police officer, I get dispatched to the most mundane calls. I mean something as useless and wasteful of police as a citizen locked out of their car. (We have slim jims and can open a car. So we get dispatched to open cars.)

So UK Police will not come by if you guys call 911 (I don't know what the UK version is) and tell the dispatcher that someone is kicking your door?

Man, if sh!t like that happened here in the states we'd all be fired and probably have our certifications stripped because we didn't protect and serve the citizenary.

The UK sounds like one crappy place to live....

Secert Police type tactics. Flying spybots watching your every move, cameras on every street corner, police having reasons to enter your house without any warrant, self defense being against the law, etc....

Just st this very moment in time it is a crappy place, the result of 10 years of idealogical zeal, combined with too powerful government. (too big a majority) which means the opposition in Parliament is in a poor position.
The ordinary guy in the street and his concerns and interests are ignored.
If I listed here the details we complain of it would read like whinging.
Let us note that so many are leaving for Australia and Europe.
Many feel that we have the beginnigs of a police state, and yet real policing is a no-no. We are in danger of inviting the resugance of extremism of all sorts.

This is what happens when politicians think they can fool all of the people all of the time.

The spirit of the indiginous population here is such that we can take it, are patient and reasonable. So we have been taken for a ride. You have to realise that most of the government over the past 10 years are the very men, now all smiling, who were left wing activists, either communists or communist edge of their movement, sworn to destroy the status quo, a few years ago.

The union is under great threat, and within Europe the aim is that there will be no England - just Scotland, Ireland and Wales, and a number of European regions where England stood. I would suggest that some of these will become Islamic, and in important areas.

We have been sold out politically. Can we survive? Only if we stop sleep-walking.

My post here is a wake-up call not a vision of despair. We are still standing. Take a look at our soccer and sport crowds. We are in there.
USA is getting one our best sons. Soccer star David Beckham. Embrace him. He will lead American soccer to World Cup glory.

 

[Del Boy]

Man, I cannot believe that.....

You're telling me that the police do not respond to some calls? As a police officer, I get dispatched to the most mundane calls. I mean something as useless and wasteful of police as a citizen locked out of their car. (We have slim jims and can open a car. So we get dispatched to open cars.)

So UK Police will not come by if you guys call 911 (I don't know what the UK version is) and tell the dispatcher that someone is kicking your door?

Man, if sh!t like that happened here in the states we'd all be fired and probably have our certifications stripped because we didn't protect and serve the citizenary.

The UK sounds like one crappy place to live....

Secert Police type tactics. Flying spybots watching your every move, cameras on every street corner, police having reasons to enter your house without any warrant, self defense being against the law, etc....

Just at this very moment in time it is a crappy place, the result of 10 years of idealogical zeal, combined with too powerful government. (too big a majority) which means the opposition in Parliament is in a poor position.
The ordinary guy in the street and his concerns and interests are ignored.
If I listed here the details we complain of it would read like whinging.
Let us note that so many are leaving for Australia and Europe.
Many feel that we have the beginnings of a police state, and yet real policing is a no-no. We are in danger of inviting the resurgence of extremism of all sorts.

This is what happens when politicians think they can fool all of the people all of the time.

The spirit of the indiginous population here is such that we can take it, are patient and reasonable. So we have been taken for a ride. You have to realise that most of the government over the past 10 years are the very men, now all smiling, who were left wing activists, either communists or communist edge of their movement, sworn to destroy the status quo, a few years ago.

The union is under great threat, and within Europe the aim is that there will be no England - just Scotland, Ireland and Wales, and a number of European regions where England stood. I would suggest that some of these will become Islamic, and in important areas.

We have been sold out politically. Can we survive? Only if we stop sleep-walking.

My post here is a wake-up call not a vision of despair. We are still standing. Take a look at our soccer and sport crowds. We are in there.
USA is getting one our best sons. Soccer star David Beckham. Embrace him. He will lead American soccer to World Cup glory.

 

[major liability]

MontyB usually makes sense to me, but I guess he places too much faith in the institution of voting. If it got to the point where we had to use weapons against the government, I really doubt they are still going to be counting your ballots.

 

[Rabs]

My personal belief is that if it ever comes down to us having to overthrow the government there will be ways of procuring fire arms.

A much more likely scenario is that just a certain segment of the population wants a rebellion and it is the well armed segment so they are powerful even though they are a minority. I am more afraid of radical right wingers trying to impose their views with their well armed base than I am by a sudden take over by the government.

This is especially true because of the strong support for right wing policies with in the military, in fact its a situation somewhat similar to post world war 1 Germany. Am i saying conservatives are actively planning a coup with their well armed base, no, but the possibility exist that they may try to "uphold the values of the constitution" in face of society growing more liberal and liberal. However, in fact they may be destroying the same principles they wish to up-hold.

 

[MontyB]

MontyB usually makes sense to me, but I guess he places too much faith in the institution of voting. If it got to the point where we had to use weapons against the government, I really doubt they are still going to be counting your ballots.

I think you misunderstand me on this its not that I have faith in electoral systems its that I have faith in well rooted democratic principles, 5.56 likes to trundle out the same group over and over as examples of what happens if the people are "disarmed" however without fail every one of those events occured in nations with out a history of democracy.

The simple fact is that in nations with generations of democratic exposure you have stability and the number of armed citizens has little to do with the strength of the democracy therefore I believe his arguments are coincidental not causative.