Arming police is backward step (UK needs help) - Page 2




 
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Arming police is backward step (UK needs help)
 
June 17th, 2007  
5.56X45mm
 
 
Arming police is backward step (UK needs help)
Hitler took guns away after he was elected

The Islamofacist in Iran stripped the weapons from citizenary that placed them in power after they took root

Castro disarmed the Cuba people after he took over on Januray 1st 1959

Before the Soviet Revolution, citizenary in Imperial Russia (which wasn't that great) were able to own firearms. After the Soviets took over, that was pver and the Gulags became very popular.

Communist North Vietnam disarmed those in the South because they feared of a underground partisan movement.

Communist China did the samething.

So did Pol Pot in Cambodia.

If you want to live in a socialist police state where Big Government watches you every move for your "own" safety. Please do so. But don't damn do it where I live.




[
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohandas K. Gandhi
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. If the middle classes render voluntary help to Government in the hour of its trial, distrust will disappear, and the ban on possessing arms will be withdrawn." Mohandas K. Gandhi, Autobiography: The Story of My Experiments with Truth, Chapter XXVII, Recruiting Campaign, Page 403, Dover paperback edition, 1983.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmund Freud
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." ("General Introduction to Psychoanalysis," S. Freud)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Yamamoto
"You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." Advising Japan's military leaders of the futility of an invasion of the mainland United States because of the widespread availability of guns. It has been theorized that this was a major contributing factor in Japan's decision not to land on North America early in the war when they had vastly superior military strength. This delay gave our industrial infrastructure time to gear up for the conflict and was decisive in our later victory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adolf Hitler
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mao Tse Tung
"All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party." (Problems of War and Strategy, Nov 6 1938, published in "Selected Works of Mao Zedong," 1965)


Quote:
Originally Posted by George Orwell
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dalai Lama
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Israeli Police Inspector General Shlomo Aharonisky
“There's no question that weapons in the hands of the public have prevented acts of terror or stopped them.”


Quote:
Originally Posted by President Theodore Roosevelt
"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step – in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come – is to teach men to shoot!" – President Theodore Roosevelt's last message to Congress.


Quote:
Originally Posted by James Earl Jones
"The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hager
"One of the arguments that had been made against gun control was that an armed citizenry was the final bulwark against tyranny. My response had been that untrained, lightly-armed non-soldiers couldn't prevail against a modern army. I had concluded that the qualitative difference in firepower was such that all of the previous rules of guerilla war no longer applied. Both Vietnam and Afghanistan demonstrated that wasn't true. Repelling an armed invasion is not something that American citizens are likely to face, but the possibility of a despotic government coming to power is not wholly unthinkable. One of the sequellae of Vietnam was the rise of the Khmer Rouge and slaughter of perhaps a million Cambodian citizens. Those citizens, like the Jews in Germany or the Armenians in Turkey, were unarmed and thus utterly and completely defenseless against police and paramilitary. An armed minority was able to kill and terrorize unarmed victims with total impunity." – Paul Hagar, "Why I Carry"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. Jeff Cooper
"Hoplophobia is a mental disturbance characterized by irrational aversion to weapons, as opposed to justified apprehension about those who may wield them." Jeff Cooper, To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth

June 17th, 2007  
Missileer
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Why?

I am interested in why you fear your government enough to require weapons to keep them at bay.

I could understand it in countries that are not inherently democratic in process but in most developed, educated and politically stable countries the general population isn't arming itself on the off chance the government comes after them.
The Founding Fathers were very careful to assure that our own government would not become a threat to citizens.

"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny, or private self defense." --John Adams

"The principal foundations of all states are good laws and good arms; and there cannot be good laws where there are not good arms. --Niccolo Machiavelli

"Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness." --George Washington

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?" --Thomas Jefferson

"I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive." --Thomas Jefferson
June 17th, 2007  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.56X45mm
Hitler took guns away after he was elected

The Islamofacist in Iran stripped the weapons from citizenary that placed them in power after they took root

Castro disarmed the Cuba people after he took over on Januray 1st 1959

Before the Soviet Revolution, citizenary in Imperial Russia (which wasn't that great) were able to own firearms. After the Soviets took over, that was pver and the Gulags became very popular.

Communist North Vietnam disarmed those in the South because they feared of a underground partisan movement.

Communist China did the samething.

So did Pol Pot in Cambodia.

If you want to live in a socialist police state where Big Government watches you every move for your "own" safety. Please do so. But don't damn do it where I live.
And you think that Gulags and underground movements will spring up in the USA if the population is exposed to gun control?

I am sorry your all or nothing arguments dont carry a whole lot of realism.

Incidently your persistence with the "fear of guns" counter argument is patently ludicrous and I can only assume generated from a lack of real arguments as I am not afraid of weapons hell I own almost 50 of them I just choose not to idolise them in the same way you do and I strongly doubt very many of the pro-gun control lobby fear weapons either.
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Arming police is backward step (UK needs help)
June 17th, 2007  
5.56X45mm
 
 
Wait?!?!?!?! You own firearms yet you always say that folks should be disarmed, that folks shouldn't be able to own them, guns are bad, folks owning guns are evil, guns have no use in society, etc.....

Seems a little hypocritical.
June 17th, 2007  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.56X45mm
Wait?!?!?!?! You own firearms yet you always say that folks should be disarmed, that folks shouldn't be able to own them, guns are bad, folks owning guns are evil, guns have no use in society, etc.....

Seems a little hypocritical.
On the contrary I have never said people should be disarmed I have said firearms should be restricted and controlled (licensed preferably) but not banned. If I was the man in charge you would be allowed to own anything you liked (within reason of course) as long as you were licensed and it was registered with a local authority and stored appropriately.

See I dont believe that people who own guns are dangerous I believe people that idolise guns such as yourself are dangerous because to me my firearms collection is for interest and enjoyment (pig or deer hunting the odd pistol or blackpowder shoot), they rate no higher on my list of chatels than diving gear or a tennis racket and oddly enough I can live quite happily without them.

I do not own weapons because I fear my government because I elected my government they can fear me, I do not need weapons to protect myself from invasion because we have a military for that and they are far better equiped and trained than I so in the end I own firearms for enjoyment and little else.
June 17th, 2007  
Del Boy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.56X45mm
Man, I cannot believe that.....

You're telling me that the police do not respond to some calls? As a police officer, I get dispatched to the most mundane calls. I mean something as useless and wasteful of police as a citizen locked out of their car. (We have slim jims and can open a car. So we get dispatched to open cars.)

So UK Police will not come by if you guys call 911 (I don't know what the UK version is) and tell the dispatcher that someone is kicking your door?

Man, if sh!t like that happened here in the states we'd all be fired and probably have our certifications stripped because we didn't protect and serve the citizenary.

The UK sounds like one crappy place to live....

Secert Police type tactics. Flying spybots watching your every move, cameras on every street corner, police having reasons to enter your house without any warrant, self defense being against the law, etc....
Just st this very moment in time it is a crappy place, the result of 10 years of idealogical zeal, combined with too powerful government. (too big a majority) which means the opposition in Parliament is in a poor position.
The ordinary guy in the street and his concerns and interests are ignored.
If I listed here the details we complain of it would read like whinging.
Let us note that so many are leaving for Australia and Europe.
Many feel that we have the beginnigs of a police state, and yet real policing is a no-no. We are in danger of inviting the resugance of extremism of all sorts.

This is what happens when politicians think they can fool all of the people all of the time.

The spirit of the indiginous population here is such that we can take it, are patient and reasonable. So we have been taken for a ride. You have to realise that most of the government over the past 10 years are the very men, now all smiling, who were left wing activists, either communists or communist edge of their movement, sworn to destroy the status quo, a few years ago.

The union is under great threat, and within Europe the aim is that there will be no England - just Scotland, Ireland and Wales, and a number of European regions where England stood. I would suggest that some of these will become Islamic, and in important areas.

We have been sold out politically. Can we survive? Only if we stop sleep-walking.

My post here is a wake-up call not a vision of despair. We are still standing. Take a look at our soccer and sport crowds. We are in there.
USA is getting one our best sons. Soccer star David Beckham. Embrace him. He will lead American soccer to World Cup glory.
June 17th, 2007  
Del Boy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.56X45mm
Man, I cannot believe that.....

You're telling me that the police do not respond to some calls? As a police officer, I get dispatched to the most mundane calls. I mean something as useless and wasteful of police as a citizen locked out of their car. (We have slim jims and can open a car. So we get dispatched to open cars.)

So UK Police will not come by if you guys call 911 (I don't know what the UK version is) and tell the dispatcher that someone is kicking your door?

Man, if sh!t like that happened here in the states we'd all be fired and probably have our certifications stripped because we didn't protect and serve the citizenary.

The UK sounds like one crappy place to live....

Secert Police type tactics. Flying spybots watching your every move, cameras on every street corner, police having reasons to enter your house without any warrant, self defense being against the law, etc....
Just at this very moment in time it is a crappy place, the result of 10 years of idealogical zeal, combined with too powerful government. (too big a majority) which means the opposition in Parliament is in a poor position.
The ordinary guy in the street and his concerns and interests are ignored.
If I listed here the details we complain of it would read like whinging.
Let us note that so many are leaving for Australia and Europe.
Many feel that we have the beginnings of a police state, and yet real policing is a no-no. We are in danger of inviting the resurgence of extremism of all sorts.

This is what happens when politicians think they can fool all of the people all of the time.

The spirit of the indiginous population here is such that we can take it, are patient and reasonable. So we have been taken for a ride. You have to realise that most of the government over the past 10 years are the very men, now all smiling, who were left wing activists, either communists or communist edge of their movement, sworn to destroy the status quo, a few years ago.

The union is under great threat, and within Europe the aim is that there will be no England - just Scotland, Ireland and Wales, and a number of European regions where England stood. I would suggest that some of these will become Islamic, and in important areas.

We have been sold out politically. Can we survive? Only if we stop sleep-walking.

My post here is a wake-up call not a vision of despair. We are still standing. Take a look at our soccer and sport crowds. We are in there.
USA is getting one our best sons. Soccer star David Beckham. Embrace him. He will lead American soccer to World Cup glory.
June 17th, 2007  
major liability
 
 
MontyB usually makes sense to me, but I guess he places too much faith in the institution of voting. If it got to the point where we had to use weapons against the government, I really doubt they are still going to be counting your ballots.
June 17th, 2007  
Rabs
 
 
My personal belief is that if it ever comes down to us having to overthrow the government there will be ways of procuring fire arms.

A much more likely scenario is that just a certain segment of the population wants a rebellion and it is the well armed segment so they are powerful even though they are a minority. I am more afraid of radical right wingers trying to impose their views with their well armed base than I am by a sudden take over by the government.

This is especially true because of the strong support for right wing policies with in the military, in fact its a situation somewhat similar to post world war 1 Germany. Am i saying conservatives are actively planning a coup with their well armed base, no, but the possibility exist that they may try to "uphold the values of the constitution" in face of society growing more liberal and liberal. However, in fact they may be destroying the same principles they wish to up-hold.
June 17th, 2007  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by major liability
MontyB usually makes sense to me, but I guess he places too much faith in the institution of voting. If it got to the point where we had to use weapons against the government, I really doubt they are still going to be counting your ballots.

I think you misunderstand me on this its not that I have faith in electoral systems its that I have faith in well rooted democratic principles, 5.56 likes to trundle out the same group over and over as examples of what happens if the people are "disarmed" however without fail every one of those events occured in nations with out a history of democracy.

The simple fact is that in nations with generations of democratic exposure you have stability and the number of armed citizens has little to do with the strength of the democracy therefore I believe his arguments are coincidental not causative.
 


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