Arizona's "immagration" law

Why come legally when you can just sneak in, pop out a kid, then live on the welfare system that's supposed to help legal citizens when they're down and out?
 
This illegal immigration business will never cease to annoy me.

For the life of me I cannot work out how people who have entered a country illegally have any rights whatsoever. The very fact that they are there makes them criminals as they have broken a federal law, and as far as I'm concerned they should be sent straight back where they came from.

I don't care that farmers won't have cheap labour to exploit, or any of a dozen other excuses that are given.

At the moment it appears that countries are merely playing some sort of sick game, whereby they have borders to keep people out, but if you do get across the border, you are "home free" and may stay, pay no tax and suck off the legitimate taxpayers.

If this is the case why bother having a border at all?
 
My feelings exactly, Seno. I'm all for the Border Patrol shooting them all on sight.


This forward that my friend just sent me seems to sum it up nicely....unfortunately.




Let me see if I got this right.....

* - IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.

* - IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.

* - IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.

* - IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.

* - IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.

* - IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.

* - IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

* - IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET................................
* 1 - A JOB,
* 2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE,
* 3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
* 4 - WELFARE,
* 5 - FOOD STAMPS,
* 6 - CREDIT CARDS,
* 7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
* 8 - FREE EDUCATION,
* 9 - FREE HEALTH CARE,
* 10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON,
* 11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE,
* 12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT.
 
Last edited:
You are are missing the point. Its not about illegal immigration, we all agree that illegals need to be deported. The problem is about unrestricted police power who can demand papers from anyone they *think* to be illegal.

Case in point, this happened a week ago:

A Latino Truck Driver was detained by Arizona police because he was suspected of being illegal because he told the officer that his mother lived in Mexico.

The officer demanded to see a birth certificate which he didn't have on hand (he did have a valid US commerical drivers license and who carries his/her birth certificate with them at all times??? I rest my case). So ICE arrested him, handcuffed him, and detained him until his wife could come to the Police station and provide the police with his Birth Certificate. The Truck Driver was born in Fresno California. He was an American Citizen.

So congratulation Arizona, one of your first actual arrests of this new law was a wrongful arrest. Prepare to be sued into the next century.

To put it plainly, He was arrested for driving while Brown. Anybody with brown skin, a hispanic accent or sounding name, WATCH OUT. According to Arizona law you are now a suspect. No other minority group is subject to this scrutiny.

Story is here:
http://guanabee.com/2010/04/american-truck-driver-illegal-alien-arizona-sb1070/

This law will most likely be declared unconstitutional, because it legalizes racial profiling. And there are even police stations in Arizona that are refusing to comply because to execute such a unethical, racist law would open them up to false arrest lawsuits.

Imagine if the police could demand papers from any black person they *thought* might be a gang member, or any white person who *might* be a member of the mafia. And yet those people are not targeted...why is that?

Answer: Racism and Xenophobia.

My mother was born in France, is white, speaks with a heavy French Accent. She is a US citizen now. What are the chances that she would be demanded to see her papers in Arizona? About 100,000,000 to 1.

BUT

If she were Hispanic, had tan skin, and a Spanish accent what would her chances be then?

If you agree that her chances of being stopped by the police are greater because she was brown then you would agree that this law is based on racial profiling.

Hispanic Americans/legal immigrants have every right to be angry. This law is illegal and it is racist.


Sevens

Are China, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia countries you really want to copy anything from? How they treat illegals is actually no worse than they treat their citizens.
 
Last edited:
mmarsh said:
You are are missing the point. Its not about illegal immigration, we all agree that illegals need to be deported. The problem is about unrestricted police power who can demand papers from anyone they *think* to be illegal.
Click to expand...
Not at all, my point was that none of this would not be a problem if it were not for the fact that Illegal immigrants are seemingly given the blind eye once they are over the border and into settled areas.

If for some strange reason, a legitimate US citizen was found to have entered the US illegally, at a non prescribed point or without having reported to the authorities, there is a good chance that he would be prosecuted for breaking some federal law. Whereas when non US citizens do it they appear to be largely ignored. In fact there are demonstrations if the authorities announce that they are going to search for Illegals???

That is just my perception from here.

As for this profiling, I think it is a load of hog wash. If a bank is robbed by a one legged man, I don't see it as being unreasonable or unfair that the police would want question all one legged men in the area.
 
Last edited:
I didn't miss the point at all, mmarsh. I think police agencies SHOULD be able to ask for documentation from ALL persons believed to be illegal. And those who can't produce papers proving they are here legally, should be immediately jailed and deported. Illegals have more rights than citizens, which I find appalling. I despise them all, and, as I said, am all for shooting them on sight and showing them no mercy whatsoever.
 
mmarsh said:
Case in point, this happened a week ago:

A Latino Truck Driver was detained by Arizona police because he was suspected of being illegal because he told the officer that his mother lived in Mexico.

The officer demanded to see a birth certificate which he didn't have on hand (he did have a valid US commerical drivers license and who carries his/her birth certificate with them at all times??? I rest my case). So ICE arrested him, handcuffed him, and detained him until his wife could come to the Police station and provide the police with his Birth Certificate. The Truck Driver was born in Fresno California. He was an American Citizen.

So congratulation Arizona, one of your first actual arrests of this new law was a wrongful arrest. Prepare to be sued into the next century.

To put it plainly, He was arrested for driving while Brown. Anybody with brown skin, a hispanic accent or sounding name, WATCH OUT. According to Arizona law you are now a suspect. No other minority group is subject to this scrutiny.
Click to expand...

Your article and story is a load of bull.

1. He is a commercial driver passing through a weigh station. It is normal for truckers to show manifests, valid commercial drivers license.

There is no indication in your link showing he had a valid drivers license as you stated.

At a weigh station you are dealing with interstate commerce and so federal laws are enforced.
He would have been detained and his truck would not move until a legally licensed driver came to get it. Also the fines for driving commercial vehicles illegally are very high.

In short what trucker would try and go through a scale with out valid paperwork no mater what race?
Mexican truckers through NAFTA drive in the US all the time.

The article is also bull because the law does not go into effect for 90 days.:roll:

So your whole righteous indignation is wasted on a illegal commercial driver who is probably trying to avoid a big fine by claiming he has been profiled.

If he had a valid commercial license he would have been allowed to continue. And any commercial driver passing through a weigh station can be required to show ID.

There was no profiling he was asked to produce valid ID the same as any other trucker.

He was not driving down the highway minding his own business and pulled over because he was Latino.

Even in the video he would not identify himself, just (maybe)his last name.

Note: He was detained by ICE, the last time I checked they were a federal government agency and would not be detaining this guy with a Arizona law.
 
Last edited:
I saw nothing in that law stating only Mexicans would be asked for ID,so the only reason the Hispanics and Latinos are complaining and protesting is the fact that not too many Illegal Russians go to Arizona.
 
Same story different source because some people here are too lazy to research things themselves especially when in invalidates their argument. For some ignorance truly is bliss...

http://coloradoindependent.com/5203...ver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate

"He pulled in to have the truck looked at, was apparently approached by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and asked for ID. He showed them his commercial driver’s license. They asked him for more ID. He told them his social security number. They cuffed him took him to the central office in Phoenix and called his wife to bring his social security card and birth certificate. The truckdiver is identifying himself to media only as “Abdon” and he is an American citizen born in the USA".

Senojekips

How many one legged people are there? Few. How many Hispanics in America are there? Millions, most of them are legal.

Thats normal because you are Caucasian therefore have very little to worry about. But ask a Black or Hispanic man living a crime ridden area how it feels to be be constantly targeted by the police, even if they ARE NOT doing anything wrong. Its always Caucasians who think such laws are just, because they are NEVER the subject of such laws.

I had a friend in high school, He was black, had the body of a rugby player, came from a good family (father was a pastor), and was a honor student and was never in any legal trouble. And despite the fact that he didn't have much of a street accent he was constantly harassed by the police he was even pulled over in front of my school. The Dean had to clear it up with the police. This crap goes on ALL THE TIME.

Secondly in most areas Racial profiling is illegal. President Bush signed a (toothless) executive order in 2003 ordering the end to all racial profiling. No police stations that I have ever heard of openly admit (officially) using racial profiling. Maybe some of the cops here can tell me I am wrong, but I have never heard of any department admitted to using racial profiling to determine potential suspects. Which tells you? the police think its wrong too at least in public...

The fact is no citizen should not be stopped on physical description alone.

And as I mentioned some police districts AGREE that the law is racist and immoral.

i have no problem with cracking down on illegal immigration, but not at the expense of American citizens/legal immigrants civil liberties. Some of the rightwingers really make me laugh because of all their paranoia about the Federal government taking away their "rights", and here's the state government doing the same-thing to others and not a peep is uttered.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...to_enforce_states_new_racist_immigration.html

Wolfen

Laws that required Literacy tests for voting never mentioned that blacks were to be the sole subjects of those laws but they were. In other words, Just because something doesn't say its racist doesn't mean that it isn't. I think you will find that this law will be applied ONLY to Hispanics and no one else.

What the law is saying is that Hispanics in Arizona must carry a birth certificate with them at all times. Thats a violation of the 14th Amendment, all citizens being equal under the law. And I almost guarantee you this law, unless its amended to clearly define "reasonable suspicion" will be struck down on those grounds.

This law is so unjust its actually creating bipartisanship. Even Republicans are speaking out against it including Jeb Bush, Rick Perry, Mark Rubio amongst many.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, got a friend in Michigan who gets pulled over constantly for being brown.
But the illegal immigration is something that needs tackling. It's been out of control for too long.
 
No doubt that illegal immigration is something that needs work, but this is not what it needs. Giving state and local police the power to arrest without a warrant based on probable cause is FRIGHTENING. And they said Obama was the Nazi. Gestapo, anyone??
 
Sevens said:
Well if that's what it takes to end the problem.....
Click to expand...

Dunno where I stand on this one right now... I know that this problem HAS to be tackled but I'm not sure if this is the right way. Whatever the decision, it is up to the citizens and their representatives to decide.
Either way, be very careful of "if that's what it takes."
 
mmarsh said:
Same story different source because some people here are too lazy to research things themselves especially when in invalidates their argument. For some ignorance truly is bliss...

http://coloradoindependent.com/5203...ver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate

"He pulled in to have the truck looked at, was apparently approached by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and asked for ID. He showed them his commercial driver’s license. They asked him for more ID. He told them his social security number. They cuffed him took him to the central office in Phoenix and called his wife to bring his social security card and birth certificate. The truckdiver is identifying himself to media only as “Abdon” and he is an American citizen born in the USA".
Click to expand...

No wonder you hate supplying sources, you do not have any idea what constitutes a legitimate source.

A rehash of the same article did not change the information supplied

This guy was not arrested under the new Arizona law. It is not in effect yet.
He was not arrested by police in Arizona. He was arrested by Federal ICE agents.
The article says he showed his commercial drivers license. It says nothing about it being a valid license.
It also shows he was not stopped because of his looks, he was questioned when he entered a truck inspection station.



mmarsh said:
Senojekips

How many one legged people are there? Few. How many Hispanics in America are there? Millions, most of them are legal.

Thats normal because you are Caucasian therefore have very little to worry about. But ask a Black or Hispanic man living a crime ridden area how it feels to be be constantly targeted by the police, even if they ARE NOT doing anything wrong. Its always Caucasians who think such laws are just, because they are NEVER the subject of such laws.

I had a friend in high school, He was black, had the body of a rugby player, came from a good family (father was a pastor), and was a honor student and was never in any legal trouble. And despite the fact that he didn't have much of a street accent he was constantly harassed by the police he was even pulled over in front of my school. The Dean had to clear it up with the police. This crap goes on ALL THE TIME.

Secondly in most areas Racial profiling is illegal. President Bush signed a (toothless) executive order in 2003 ordering the end to all racial profiling. No police stations that I have ever heard of openly admit (officially) using racial profiling. Maybe some of the cops here can tell me I am wrong, but I have never heard of any department admitted to using racial profiling to determine potential suspects. Which tells you? the police think its wrong too at least in public...

The fact is no citizen should not be stopped on physical description alone.

And as I mentioned some police districts AGREE that the law is racist and immoral.

i have no problem with cracking down on illegal immigration, but not at the expense of American citizens/legal immigrants civil liberties. Some of the rightwingers really make me laugh because of all their paranoia about the Federal government taking away their "rights", and here's the state government doing the same-thing to others and not a peep is uttered.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...to_enforce_states_new_racist_immigration.html

Wolfen

Laws that required Literacy tests for voting never mentioned that blacks were to be the sole subjects of those laws but they were. In other words, Just because something doesn't say its racist doesn't mean that it isn't. I think you will find that this law will be applied ONLY to Hispanics and no one else.

What the law is saying is that Hispanics in Arizona must carry a birth certificate with them at all times. Thats a violation of the 14th Amendment, all citizens being equal under the law. And I almost guarantee you this law, unless its amended to clearly define "reasonable suspicion" will be struck down on those grounds.

This law is so unjust its actually creating bipartisanship. Even Republicans are speaking out against it including Jeb Bush, Rick Perry, Mark Rubio amongst many.
Click to expand...

In all this gibberish you make the point that profiling is still being carried out throughout the country.

So the Arizona law has not changed anything for the better are worse.

People who think it is a bad law are coincidentally made up of, you guessed it, illegal aliens and their sympathizers.

President Obama thinks it is not a good law, but you have not seen the Attorney General file suit to block it. Why not? Simply because it is not unconstitutional.
 
Chukpike said:
No wonder you hate supplying sources, you do not have any idea what constitutes a legitimate source.

A rehash of the same article did not change the information supplied

This guy was not arrested under the new Arizona law. It is not in effect yet.
He was not arrested by police in Arizona. He was arrested by Federal ICE agents.
The article says he showed his commercial drivers license. It says nothing about it being a valid license.
It also shows he was not stopped because of his looks, he was questioned when he entered a truck inspection station.


In all this gibberish you make the point that profiling is still being carried out throughout the country.

So the Arizona law has not changed anything for the better are worse.

People who think it is a bad law are coincidentally made up of, you guessed it, illegal aliens and their sympathizers.

President Obama thinks it is not a good law, but you have not seen the Attorney General file suit to block it. Why not? Simply because it is not unconstitutional.
Click to expand...

Correction: I hate supplying sources TO YOU SPECIFICALLY because whenever a source is given to you will find ANY excuse to avoid admitting you were wrong like with the drivers license business which your are (not surprisingly) very silent on. What I don't like is people who are determined to waste my time because they are to LAZY and IGNORANT to research things themselves because they are terrified it might shatter the glass house they live in. And I don't give a s*** if you don't like it...cry me a river.

So, because racism isn't explicitly stated means it doesn't exist right? Are you really that naive? Get out of that glass house you live in.

Whether this was Federal or State law is not the point, the point is this is exactly the type of harassment that people of color will be treated in Arizona, whether they are legal or illegal. You find a way to stop illegal immigration that DOESN'T impact other people civil rights and you will have no complaint from me.

As for the AG, the AG hasn't files suit because various groups like the ACLU + MALDEF have already announced their plans to do so. But the AG has not ruled out joining the suit either so your suggestion that the AG wont get involved is premature. But you can rest assured that the AG is watching the case very closely. All the Constitutional scholars I have read on this issue are predicting that this law is almost certainly doomed in Federal court so the AG intervention might not be necessary.

Sevens

The moment we start ripping up the constitution to fix our societies problems is the day we stop being a democracy. Read Pastor Neimoller famous poem about what happens when citizens allow their government to starts to preying on minority groups. It doesn't end well.

Illegal Immigration is a problem, but its not unsurmountable nor is it the first time its happened. There are LEGAL ways to deal with it. "High walls and open doors" is a perfectly acceptable solution. But the real fix to illegal immigration is to address the reasons people want to leave their home countries in the first place.

Keep in mind though, that some people just don't like Brown people in the country period legally or illegally. There is an immigration problem but there is also a racial problem as well.
 
Last edited:
mmarsh said:
Senojekips

How many one legged people are there? Few. How many Hispanics in America are there? Millions, most of them are legal.

That's normal because you are Caucasian therefore have very little to worry about.
Click to expand...
From what I read about the amount Illegal immigrants are costing the US Taxpayers, there are far, far too many that are illegal. Certainly enough to warrant questioning anyone who is a suspect, A La, one legged Bank robbers. The reason I have nothing to worry about is not that I am Caucasian, but because, I am NOT an Illegal immigrant.

As for your statement implying that it's only Hispanics,..... You obviously don't watch YouTube. It ain't just Hispanics, it's anybody and everybody.

Border Patrol Search
 
Last edited:
senojekips said:
From what I read about the amount Illegal immigrants are costing the US Taxpayers, there are far, far too many that are illegal. Certainly enough to warrant questioning anyone who is a suspect, A La, one legged Bank robbers. The reason I have nothing to worry about is not that I am Caucasian, but because, I am NOT an Illegal immigrant.

As for your statement implying that it's only Hispanics,..... You obviously don't watch YouTube. It ain't just Hispanics, it's anybody and everybody.

Border Patrol Search
Click to expand...

You know the funny thing is that I have passed through the Mexico-Arizona border about 10 or so times and and never been asked anything more than "Hows it going" and "Is everyone in the car an American citizen", about half the time the guy driving just said yes and we were waved through and the times I have been driving they checked my passport and entry data and sent us on our way.

I was amazed at just how relaxed the process was by comparison to the few times I have crossed the US border into Canada which is always a hassle.

As for the video, I think it is pretty clear that the guy in the car was looking to start something.
 
senojekips said:
From what I read about the amount Illegal immigrants are costing the US Taxpayers, there are far, far too many that are illegal. Certainly enough to warrant questioning anyone who is a suspect, A La, one legged Bank robbers. The reason I have nothing to worry about is not that I am Caucasian, but because, I am NOT an Illegal immigrant.

As for your statement implying that it's only Hispanics,..... You obviously don't watch YouTube. It ain't just Hispanics, it's anybody and everybody.

Border Patrol Search
Click to expand...

Senorjekips

The video really isn't comparable.

First of all, perhaps you missed it because his Spanish accent was subtle, but that driver in the video WAS Hispanic, his accent is slight but unmistakable. And Monty is correct the driver was also deliberately causing an incident ...this wasn't a typical stop+search.

Secondly the officer in the video asked to search his car, he did not ask for a proof of birth. This would suggesting that he was probably looking for drugs and guns. Hiding people inside a car is much more difficult than hiding packs of smack. Mexican drug smugglers do use White mules to transport drugs across the border. I have no issue with the police wanting to search cars of people because such searches can be based on other factors other than the drivers race.

As I said in a different thread my mother has a unmistakable French accent (much stronger than the guy in the video) and we too have driven in Arizona and the entire SW USA (I have a uncle in New Mexico). She has NEVER been asked for any identification despite the obvious fact she isn't a natural born American citizen.

My point is this: a persons race cannot be the sole grounds for "reasonable suspicion", it can be a factor, but "driving while brown" is illegal in most places including Arizona. The problem with this law is that "reasonable suspicion" is not defined, making its interpretation very broad.
 
mmarsh said:
Senorjekips

The video really isn't comparable.
Click to expand...

Another subtly identifiable Hispanic???


How many more do you need? I don't necessarily agree with the driver, but it does show that it is NOT only Hispanics as you would have us believe. I can get dozens more of these videos if you need to be shown the error of your statement.

Why is it not comparable? You stated that I felt safe because Caucasians were not being targeted. I have shown your statement to be patently untrue.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top