Arabs in the Israeli Army - Page 5




 
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November 7th, 2011  
grey shadow
 

Topic: Palestine was an uninhabited desert.


Before the Jews came to Palestine and founded their state, the country was an uninhabited desert. At best, the Arabs roamed around in it with their camels.

That is what many people believe. There are even those who believe that it was the Jews that made the wilderness bloom, under which the Arabs are assumed to have come to Palestine from neighboring countries to reap the benefit of the results that Jews had achieved through their enthusiasm.

In fact Palestine was well populated, as it was cultivated, wherever this was possible. Following contemporary conditions, it was even quite densely populated, the terrain into account. This was already noted in the 19 century by a growing number of visitors from Europe

They included scholars who traveled the country in all directions and carefully recorded the hundreds of Arab villages' names on their cards, besides the numerous ruins that villagers designated for them. On this basis, they developed the 'Bible atlases'. But most of the visitors, however, had no scientific purpose of the trip. Their journey was religious in nature, since they wanted to visit the biblical land, and above all to pray at the holy places as pilgrims.

Anyway, the influx of visitors was so great that the famous publishers of guidebooks Karl Baedeker of Leipzig, in 1875 added a volume on Palestine to its well-known series. It was written with Germanic thoroughness by Professor Albert Socin, who was a great connoisseur of the Middle East and its history. A third edition, revised and expanded by dr. Benzinger, appeared in 1891. With Albert Socin´s work in mind, Dr. Benzinger did his travel through the area in the spring of the 1890th

By looking in his travel handbook from 1891, with its rich descriptions of routes, detailed maps and accurate historical information about the sights you get a vivid picture of life in Palestine in the last century. At that time the population is around 650,000 (including Transjordan). The visitors who came by ship from Europe, tempering usually Jaffa. About this city Benzinger writes:

“In recent years the city has grown considerably. The ancient city walls were demolished and graves to the north and south is now in the new suburbs. The population is estimated at more than 15,000. Trade is by no means negligible. Imports come mainly from Germany, and there is an export of soap, corn, sesame, pineapple and other fruits, and at the very latest of wine from Sarona”.

A prerequisite for peace between Israel and Palestine is that we recognize the historical facts as they exist. We must educate our children to take responsibility for our region and above all we must silence the religious freaks who preach hatred on both sides. It is so simple and yet so difficult. Dialogue is the only way - and we must be open to compromises where necessary.

Shalom aleikhem
(Peace be upon you)
November 7th, 2011  
Seehund
 
Shadow; Do you think you will ever experience peace in the Middle East?
November 7th, 2011  
grey shadow
 
Well Seehund; It is impossible to determine when the Middle East region will turn to peace. The issues have been going on for a very long period of time and the situation is as complicated as it is frustrating. Middle East peace will only occur when all factions have been satisfied and are willing to sit down and talk with each other. When that can occur there could be an end to all war. Peace will come only through diplomacy and compromise.

An outsider to the region would find something valid in all sides of the conflict. In efforts to find Middle East peace, you would need to understand the history of the region and the reasons for the conflict. When the long and difficult history is studied, there are many valid points on both sides. This is the source of the problem when you are trying to find an end to the war. Peace will come when both sides are able to sacrifice and compromise.

Of course, this is a very simplistic view to a very complicated problem. How to have both sides of the conflict agree and compromise when they already feel as though they have done so. Middle East peace is a lofty goal, but with a history as troubled as it has been, it is a worthy pursuit. To end war, peace must be made the ideal goal. When there is an absence of war, peace will become the order of the day.

There is a long memory in the Middle East and this is a hindrance to the end of war. Peace will be difficult when the histories of these countries are remembered and retribution is considered such a worthy goal. It will be nearly impossible to find Middle East peace when the principle countries are reacting over centuries old issues and problems. The patience of the people in this area of the country is incredible and living together with people that have been hated for such a long time might be almost too much to bear. If there is a true desire for an end to war, peace for all and stability in the region, it will be necessary to learn how to live with the enemy. This is the road to Middle East peace.

All of these problems do not point to an impossible situation, just a very difficult one. With each new generation that comes of age in these countries there is hope for Middle East peace. To encourage an end to war, peace must be made a viable option for the youth in this area of the world. Middle East peace can occur if the youth of the country can learn the benefits of ending war. Peace in the region could be found if this were to occur. The youth have the power to finally bring about Middle East peace.

Efforts to reach the youth in these countries might prove to be difficult for an outside entity, but there may be factions within the countries that have an interest in promoting Middle East peace. The plan or strategy of these people should be a focus on the youth to end war. Peace will occur if the message can be spread among the young people as they grow up and learn about the world around them. If there is to be an end to war, peace must be taught to the youth. This is the future of Middle East peace.

Shalom aleikhem
--
November 7th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Well,... maybe opinions might be better informed if people used their eyes and ears instead of their @rsehole?

Having an opinion counts for nothing, it's what that opinion is based on that counts.
I've given you facts that you couldn't disprove, that's why you ignore them.
To use your own words, you went from pro-Israel to pro-palestinian, doesn't that make you a turncoat (as you mentioned in post 2 of this tread) ?
November 7th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I'll guarantee I am far more aware of the work of B'Tselem than probably any other member of this site, and have participated in my own way for nearly 15 years. Several of my ex-Israeli relatives, now living in Australia make sure of that.
Well, that's very nobel of you. Working with such an organisation to prove the wrongdoing of fundamentalist settlers. I support that.

Then you'll also be aware of this problem:
In 2008, Natal, the Israel Center for Victims of Terror and War, conducted a study on the city of Sderot based on representative sampling. The study found that between 75 percent and 94 percent of Sderot children aged 4–18 exhibited symptoms of post-traumatic stress. 28 percent of adults and 30 percent of children had post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The co-director of the study emphasized the distinction between post-traumatic stress symptoms, such as problems sleeping and concentrating, and PTSD itself, which can interfere seriously with daily life. (Since the beginning of the Second Intifada in October 2000, the city has been under constant rocket fire from Qassam rockets launched by Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Sderot has a population of 20.900)

In case you distrust Natal, here's one from Amnesty International:
2009 report
Scores [of rockets] have struck homes, businesses, schools, other public buildings and vehicles in and around towns and villages in southern Israel. It is purely by chance that in most cases such strikes have not caused death or injury, and the lethal potential of such projectiles should not be underestimated. Above all, the constant threat of impending rocket attacks has caused fear and disrupted the lives of the growing number of Israelis who live within range of such attacks, reaching up to a million. (you called those rockets fireworks, remember?)
November 7th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by grey shadow
Before the Jews came to Palestine and founded their state, the country was an uninhabited desert. At best, the Arabs roamed around in it with their camels.
I agree with most of what you said. But let me make some corrections.

According to Alexander Scholch, the population of Palestine in 1850 had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns; roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews.

1891 : 650,000 (including Transjordan)



Quote:
For descriptions of other parts of the country, we are indebted to the 1937 Report of the Palestine Royal Commission—though, for lack of space, we can quote but the briefest passages. In Chapter 9, para. 43 the Report quotes an eye-witness account of the condition of the Maritime Plain in 1913:
The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track suitable for transport by camels and carts . . . no orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached Yabna village. . . . Not in a single village in all this area was water used for irrigation. . . . Houses were all of mud. No windows were anywhere to be seen. . . . The ploughs used were of wood. . . . The yields were very poor. . . . The sanitary conditions in the village were horrible. Schools did not exist. . . . The rate of infant mortality was very high. . . . The area north of Jaffa . . . consisted of two distinctive parts. . . . The eastern part, in the direction of the hills, resembled in culture that of the Gaza-Jaffa area. . . . The western part, towards the sea, was almost a
desert. . . . The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many ruins of villages were scattered over the area, as owing to the prevalence of malaria, many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.
An Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine to the League of Nations, June 1921
Quote:
The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. [...] After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000. Every traveller in Palestine who visits them is impressed by the contrast between these pleasant villages, with the beautiful stretches of prosperous cultivation about them, and the primitive conditions of life and work by which they are surrounded.
November 7th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by grey shadow
Well Seehund; It is impossible to determine when the Middle East region will turn to peace. The issues have been going on for a very long period of time and the situation is as complicated as it is frustrating. Middle East peace will only occur when all factions have been satisfied and are willing to sit down and talk with each other. When that can occur there could be an end to all war. Peace will come only through diplomacy and compromise.

An outsider to the region would find something valid in all sides of the conflict. In efforts to find Middle East peace, you would need to understand the history of the region and the reasons for the conflict. When the long and difficult history is studied, there are many valid points on both sides. This is the source of the problem when you are trying to find an end to the war. Peace will come when both sides are able to sacrifice and compromise.

Of course, this is a very simplistic view to a very complicated problem. How to have both sides of the conflict agree and compromise when they already feel as though they have done so. Middle East peace is a lofty goal, but with a history as troubled as it has been, it is a worthy pursuit. To end war, peace must be made the ideal goal. When there is an absence of war, peace will become the order of the day.

There is a long memory in the Middle East and this is a hindrance to the end of war. Peace will be difficult when the histories of these countries are remembered and retribution is considered such a worthy goal. It will be nearly impossible to find Middle East peace when the principle countries are reacting over centuries old issues and problems. The patience of the people in this area of the country is incredible and living together with people that have been hated for such a long time might be almost too much to bear. If there is a true desire for an end to war, peace for all and stability in the region, it will be necessary to learn how to live with the enemy. This is the road to Middle East peace.

All of these problems do not point to an impossible situation, just a very difficult one. With each new generation that comes of age in these countries there is hope for Middle East peace. To encourage an end to war, peace must be made a viable option for the youth in this area of the world. Middle East peace can occur if the youth of the country can learn the benefits of ending war. Peace in the region could be found if this were to occur. The youth have the power to finally bring about Middle East peace.

Efforts to reach the youth in these countries might prove to be difficult for an outside entity, but there may be factions within the countries that have an interest in promoting Middle East peace. The plan or strategy of these people should be a focus on the youth to end war. Peace will occur if the message can be spread among the young people as they grow up and learn about the world around them. If there is to be an end to war, peace must be taught to the youth. This is the future of Middle East peace.

Shalom aleikhem
maybe this is a start:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/petercoh...stinian-peace/

http://buildingmarkets.org/blogs/blo...and-palestine/
November 7th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I've given you facts that you couldn't disprove, that's why you ignore them.
To use your own words, you went from pro-Israel to pro-palestinian, doesn't that make you a turncoat (as you mentioned in post 2 of this tread) ?
No, it does not. I am not a "turncoat", because I am not a citizen of either group, and as such, constitutes no more than "a change of mind". Once again you lack of real understanding of the English language has led to a totally false assumption.

Anything I have ignored has been covered at length in this Forum previously (often several times) and I must admit the whole issue is starting to bore the tits off me However, bearing in mind the fact that I am only a two finger "hunt and peck" typist I do often just gloss over items that probably deserve much greater attention, but I do this in view of them having either been covered at length previously or being no more than blatant and obvious lies.

You seem to have the mistaken idea that you are the first to raise these points. Well,... as might be evidenced from MontyB's recent comments about the whole israel issue "still going on", you will find that you are no more than the last of a long line of failed Zionist apologists to have come here trying to justify their shameless criminal behaviour. I suppose that if I had a brain at all I would ignore you completely, (as I have said I would on several occasions), but there is something I find particularly annoying about persons such as yourself, who seem to work on that strange assumption that is almost a Zionist hallmark, "that lies and distortions, if repeated loud enough and often enough will gradually cover up, or even become the truth".

To any person with more than a solitary functioning brain cell, the huge mountain of evidence in the form of reports by International Organisations such as Medecins Sans Frontieres, the IRC and a dozen others including video evidence of their claims, (some of which are run by Israelis), plus UN resolutions* and the findings of the ICJ, Israel has absolutely no case to support them. One tenth of this would shame any responsible country into getting their act together.

*The single fact that the UNHRC has raised more resolutions condemning Israel than all other countries combined, is evidence enough of Israel's true pariah status, (whether declared or not). To support this claim I add the link below, to an article written several years ago by the eminent and highly acclaimed Jewish professor, Tony Judt of NYU.

http://novalight.org/Israel-RogueState.html
November 8th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Anything I have ignored has been covered at length in this Forum previously (often several times) and I must admit the whole issue is starting to bore the tits off me However, bearing in mind the fact that I am only a two finger "hunt and peck" typist I do often just gloss over items that probably deserve much greater attention, but I do this in view of them having either been covered at length previously or being no more than blatant and obvious lies.
You said the jews started with the attacks on Palestinians. I proved you were wrong. I gave you a date (fact), up untill today I am waiting for your answer. (and it isn't in your previous posts either.)

You said that the land belonged to the Palestinians , I proved you were wrong. It is not because you always lived there that it belongs to you. It belongs to the one that rules it. Whether you like it or not.

You said that all the Palestinian refugees were expelled from their homes by the Israelis. I proved you were wrong because there are NO records about how many were expelled, how many fled before and during the war. There are approx figures (25%) about the ones that stayed. (Abbas admitted they were partial or even fully responsible for the refugee problem!)

You said that 99% of terrorism is because of Israel. I gave you some questions and you answered YES to all of them. Then I asked you for the connection between Boko Harum's attacks in Nigeria and Israel. I'm still waiting for your answer.

I also said that, in my opinion, the two state soultion with 1967 borders could be the best deal, although the Israelis do have a point that their settlements are on land that is for grabs. The Palestinians refused it from the beginning. It's like someone has two apples. He gives one to the Israeli and one to the Palestinian. The Israeli takes it and the Palestinan throws it away because he wants all of them. Then the Israeli picks it up and bites in it and then the Palestinian cries foul.

Quote:
You seem to have the mistaken idea that you are the first to raise these points. Well,... as might be evidenced from MontyB's recent comments about the whole israel issue "still going on", you will find that you are no more than the last of a long line of failed Zionist apologists to have come here trying to justify their shameless criminal behaviour. I suppose that if I had a brain at all I would ignore you completely, (as I have said I would on several occasions), but there is something I find particularly annoying about persons such as yourself, who seem to work on that strange assumption that is almost a Zionist hallmark, "that lies and distortions, if repeated loud enough and often enough will gradually cover up, or even become the truth".
Then answer the questions above.

Quote:
To any person with more than a solitary functioning brain cell, the huge mountain of evidence in the form of reports by International Organisations such as Medecins Sans Frontieres, the IRC and a dozen others including video evidence of their claims, (some of which are run by Israelis), plus UN resolutions* and the findings of the ICJ, Israel has absolutely no case to support them. One tenth of this would shame any responsible country into getting their act together.
I never said the Israelis didn't do anything wrong. But you are silent about the Palestinian ones. But no problem, I wil give you some others.

Human Rights Watch : Abuses against Journalists by Palestinian Security Forces and Occupied Territories: Stop Use of Children in Suicide Bombings
ICJ : Condems attacks against civilians in Israel
You changed your mind from pro-Israel to anti, and you have the right to do so, so does Tony Judt. So you propably don't mind that Richard Goldstone also changed his mind : Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes


Quote:
*The single fact that the UNHRC has raised more resolutions condemning Israel than all other countries combined, is evidence enough of Israel's true pariah status, (whether declared or not). To support this claim I add the link below, to an article written several years ago by the eminent and highly acclaimed Jewish professor, Tony Judt of NYU.
About UN : The UN's Refugees
And an article from Louis René Beres , a professor of Political Science at Purdue University in West Lafayette : Palestinian atrocities, Israeli retaliations and the law of war
November 8th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
You said the jews started with the attacks on Palestinians. I proved you were wrong. I gave you a date (fact), up untill today I am waiting for your answer. (and it isn't in your previous posts either.)
No you did not! The Jews were the first to form a specific organisations for the sole purpose of committing acts of Terror, (Terrorist organisations) Irgun Lehi, Stern gang etc., call them what you will. I know you will trot out the old Zionist lie that they were for defence, but there is no way that you or the Israelis can convince the world that the bombing of market places and assassination of members of the legitimate administration, and foreign diplomats was a form of defence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
You said that the land belonged to the Palestinians , I proved you were wrong. It is not because you always lived there that it belongs to you. It belongs to the one that rules it. Whether you like it or not.
Wrong and this was proved by me in the debate involving the word "ownership" which you admitted you did not even know the meaning of. Palestinian ownership was admitted by the Brits and acknowledged in the McMahion-Hussein agreement, it has also been admitted by such Israelis as David Ben Gurion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ben Gurion
They see but one thing; we have come and we have stolen their land. Why would they accept that? -- David Ben Gurion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
You said that all the Palestinian refugees were expelled from their homes by the Israelis. I proved you were wrong because there are NO records about how many were expelled, how many fled before and during the war. There are approx figures (25%) about the ones that stayed. (Abbas admitted they were partial or even fully responsible for the refugee problem!)
Another fallacy that was disproved by me in Post #26 with sources provided outlining the destruction of approximately 530 -550 Palestinian settlements towns and villages by Israel in direct contravention of the one of the main conditions under which the formation of Israel was incorrectly allowed "that no harm come to the owners of the land". The Palestinians were responsible for this? Bullsh!t!!
If there are no records as you say, it is only because the Israelis either neglected to record the information (which I believe is untrue) or they destroyed them. No records are needed anyway as the evidence is till there.

This was merely the beginning of a deliberate policy of Ethnic cleansing that has continued to this day and freely admitted by many Israelis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ran haCohen
"In Israel itself, however, the idea of "transfer" – the common euphemism for ethnic cleansing or mass deportation – is discussed openly" Source: http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h123002.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

Now,... that is three out of three. I'm not going bother going on, answering and re-answering that which has already been answered merely because you are just locked into your own world of denial or too stupid to comprehend what has been said. There is an old and very pertinent quote applicable in situations such as this.

"I can explain it to you,... but I can't understand it for you".


 


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