Arabs in the Israeli Army - Page 13




 
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November 28th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
I will reply these posts at the following thread : "About Israel - Palestine : The truth (or not?)"
November 28th, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
As you are in this situation and the israelis in regard to the Palestinians. You just shot down your own argument. Thank you..
No, I am not sure how you came up with that conclusion; perhaps your opinion that you are moral more than I, whatever.

I told you before, I never justified any Israeli actions over Palestinians. The point is, Palestinians have bad reputation (thanks to their Arab "friends". I want a Palestinian state, but I also want Israel to still be where it is.

Removing them is immoral; sometimes its best to look towards the future instead of the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Hitler, where did I say Hitler?? I said about the jews and half jews that followed Hitler,... that's how you sink yourself so quickly, you read what you want to see instead of what is actually written.
Please read over what I said, I didn't say you said that. I was comparing your half-Jews siding with Hitler comparison to the Arabs that side with Israel statement with ones that is equally outrageous; Bush and Hitler comparisons. I was saying that the comparison is not even extreme enough to actually compare it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Of course you can, just like you understand the half Jews who willingly fought for the nazis and Major Nidal Malik Hasan who recently shot how many US Servicemen? You like they, have no morals so it's hardly a consideration for you. Your "morality" changes to suit your purpose.
Please tell me where I said I understood the half-Jews that willingly served the Nazis? It is of my understanding that some of these half-Jews didn't consider themselves Jewish. Because there is nothing to tell me why each of these half-Jews sided with Hitler, I won't call them despicable as a whole (exception of the ones that knew about the Concentration and Death camps)


Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Of course it's moral, as it is moral to correct any wrong, what is immoral, is not correcting a mistake. Your personal view is all very convenient if you are an Israeli. "Lets just let it slide",... like I suppose we should have allowed Saddam to keep talking shite and generally pissing people about. You conveniently forget, that nowhere in the UN constitution does it give them (or anyone else) the right to just give someone's country to another party, much less a people who have nothing more in common than merely being of the one religion.

No, it isn't moral to correct wrongs by doing another wrong. Removal of Israel shouldn't be considered a solution. It is the outright blaming of one party (which is what you been doing all this time) that I disagree with. Your "solution" isn't a solution, and if it was to happen, then all the countries that expelled Jews should be forced to take them back as well (since people want the Arab refugees to flood Israel).
November 28th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
No, I am not sure how you came up with that conclusion; perhaps your opinion that you are moral more than I, whatever.
That is without doubt, as you posts clearly demonstrate, not only your lack of morality, but also you complete ignorance as to what morality is. You strenuously denied my interpretation of what morality, but went very quiet on it once I quoted the actual definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
I told you before, I never justified any Israeli actions over Palestinians. The point is, Palestinians have bad reputation (thanks to their Arab "friends". I want a Palestinian state, but I also want Israel to still be where it is.
Again, you focus on blaming the Palestinians, completely ignoring such facts as Israel having had more condemnatory UN resolutions than every other country put together. If you had even the slightest power of reasoning this would give you some clue as to who the actual wrong doers are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
Removing them is immoral; sometimes its best to look towards the future instead of the past.
If you had read my comments in regard to this in other threads you would find that I have never advocated purely for removal of Jews from Palestine. What I have said is that control must revert to the owners as was done in South Africa. The owners must be given back their land and those who so willingly stole it will have to pay the consequences. This is where it will become hard for you to understand, because it relies on a moral principle called "Justice". I know of no legal system in the world either ancient or modern, that allows criminals to just keep the proceeds of their crimes,... but it seem s that you would advocate that, Those who are not prepared to abide by this will move out and go elsewhere just as they were so eager to move in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
Please read over what I said, I didn't say you said that. I was comparing your half-Jews siding with Hitler comparison to the Arabs that side with Israel statement with ones that is equally outrageous; Bush and Hitler comparisons. I was saying that the comparison is not even extreme enough to actually compare it.
Half the time I have little idea of what you actually mean, because every time you say something stupid, you claim to have been misunderstood. So instead of trying to second guess what you do mean I must just read what you type, and I answer that.

Nowhere have I ever said a thing about Bush-Hitler comparisons, this was something that you thought up to further try to distort what I have allegedly said or implied. My other statement about turncoats is absolutely valid as it always has been throughout history. Betrayal is a "dog" act, and especially so when it is done to aid a rogue state who undertakes criminal activity to deprive others of what is rightfully theirs. Once again, you wouldn't understand, as it involves moral principles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
Please tell me where I said I understood the half-Jews that willingly served the Nazis?
Now this is typical of where you get yourself into trouble,.... again.

Nowhere did I say that you said you misunderstood about the half Jews etc. Here is exactly what i said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Of course you can, just like you understand the half Jews who willingly fought for the nazis .... etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
No, it isn't moral to correct wrongs by doing another wrong.
But it is perfectly moral to correct wrongs by doing what is right, and that is my point exactly. Only the Israelis and their supporters claim that it is wrong. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out why.
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November 28th, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
That is without doubt, as you posts clearly demonstrate, not only your lack of morality, but also you complete ignorance as to what morality is. You strenuously denied my interpretation of what morality, but went very quiet on it once I quoted the actual definition.

Again, you focus on blaming the Palestinians, completely ignoring such facts as Israel having had more condemnatory UN resolutions than every other country put together. If you had even the slightest power of reasoning this would give you some clue as to who the actual wrong doers are.

If you had read my comments in regard to this in other threads you would find that I have never advocated purely for removal of Jews from Palestine. What I have said is that control must revert to the owners as was done in South Africa. The owners must be given back their land and those who so willingly stole it will have to pay the consequences. This is where it will become hard for you to understand, because it relies on a moral principle called "Justice". I know of no legal system in the world either ancient or modern, that allows criminals to just keep the proceeds of their crimes,... but it seem s that you would advocate that, Those who are not prepared to abide by this will move out and go elsewhere just as they were so eager to move in.

Half the time I have little idea of what you actually mean, because every time you say something stupid, you claim to have been misunderstood. So instead of trying to second guess what you do mean I must just read what you type, and I answer that.

I never said a thing about Bush-Hitler comparisons, as there is little if any evidence of it. My other statement about Arab turncoats is absolutely valid as it always has been throughout history.

Now this is typical of where you get yourself into trouble,.... again.

Nowhere did I say that you said you misunderstood about the half Jews etc. Here is exactly what i said:

But it is perfectly moral to correct wrongs by doing what is right, and that is my point exactly. Only the Israelis and their supporters claim that it is wrong. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out why.

Last post for me on this thread:

1. I think your the one lacking understanding of morality....

2. How many times do I have to tell you, I am showing you why U.S citizens prefer Israel over Palestine. I am only defending Israel because you show nothing but anti-Israeli statements on Israeli-related threads (even if the thread was not favoring them). In order for people to get a more balanced approach, people like me and VDKMS shows the opposite arguement. If someone let a guy spout nothing but Pro positions and no one countered him, how many people will be Pro as well.? Just like you see yourself as a counter-balance to Israel, we see ourselves as a counter-balance to Palestine (not to condemn Palestine, but to show why Israel should exist where it is).

The U.N imo picks out cherries, there are many more U.N countries that need many resolutions on it; China, Soviet Russia etc. Why aren't these countries being forced by U.N resolutions? I don't know, maybe because they are poweful countries.

3. I wasn't saying to suggested the removal of Jews. I am talking about the removal of Israel, which will result in a removal of Jews (if not pure violence). You think once Palestine gets control and is able to flood "Israel", that they will all of a sudden become peaceful? You think they won't try expelling Jews just like the many Arab countries did (which were in the U.N).


I believe many executives were allowed to keep their money durin the Enron scandal lol. I could be wrong though.


4. Forget the Hitler-Bush thing then. Basically I believe your comparing of Arabs serving Israel with the half-Jews serving Hitler is not correct. That is what I was saying.

5. As for this one, I don't understand why half-Jews served Hitler. It is however, my understanding that these said people did not consider themselves Jews.

6. It isn't right to punish one generation because the earlier generations messed up. Correcting the wrong do not always mean reversing it like that. Your solution holds too many risks and therefore it is immoral to act out on it.
November 29th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
2. How many times do I have to tell you, I am showing you why U.S citizens prefer Israel over Palestine.
No one cares what you imagine US citizens think. I am debating what is right and what is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
I wasn't saying to suggested the removal of Jews. I am talking about the removal of Israel, which will result in a removal of Jews (if not pure violence). You think once Palestine gets control and is able to flood "Israel", that they will all of a sudden become peaceful? You think they won't try expelling Jews just like the many Arab countries did (which were in the U.N).
They will become peaceful as soon as the Jewish immigrants do the right thing, their actions were what started this in the first place. Buying up land from an invader who never had the right to sell it, then forbidding it's sale or lease to Palestinians who had often worked it for centuries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jews For Justice In the Middle East

The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs’ inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).
The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists’ intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)
In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
I believe many executives were allowed to keep their money durin the Enron scandal lol. I could be wrong though.
An interesting and possibly valid point, however I feel that if the money was able to be seized, it would have been. It has probably been ignored because it is safely in Swiss accounts etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
Forget the Hitler-Bush thing then. Basically I believe your comparing of Arabs serving Israel with the half-Jews serving Hitler is not correct. That is what I was saying.
And I was saying you were wrong because you change your perception of morality to suit your argument. I'll guarantee that you would change your mind again if asked to make a judgement call on US traitors like, John Lindh or Adam Gadahn (Azzam the American) both native born citizens of the US who went over to Al Qaeda. People like yourself seem to think that you can have it both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
As for this one, I don't understand why half-Jews served Hitler. It is however, my understanding that these said people did not consider themselves Jews.
Jewishness is not something you elect to be, it is a birthright, if your mother is Jewish then you are Jewish according to Rabbinical law, although the progressive Jews recognise apostates and also anyone with part Jewish heritage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
It isn't right to punish one generation because the earlier generations messed up. Correcting the wrong do not always mean reversing it like that. Your solution holds too many risks and therefore it is immoral to act out on it.
Once again you change morality to suit you answer and it just doesn't work like that, and we are not punishing them, merely righting the wrongs. Which in no way excuses the present generation as they have almost without exception willingly and actively supported or participated in the criminal activities of their forefathers. I just love how you attempt to mitigate the guilt of their forefathers by using the term "messed up" instead of saying something nearer to the truth like, "committed Crimes against International and Humanitarian Law"

You "mess up" when you make a poor decision" but when you elect to deliberately continue "messing up" it becomes an act of criminal stupidity. If my father set up a criminal empire and I continue operating it and refining it, I can't blame others when the law shuts me down, nor can I claim that I'm being "punished" for the actions of my father.
November 29th, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
No one cares what you imagine US citizens think. I am debating what is right and what is wrong.

They will become peaceful as soon as the Jewish immigrants do the right thing, their actions were what started this in the first place. Buying up land from an invader who never had the right to sell it, then forbidding it's sale or lease to Palestinians who had often worked it for centuries.


An interesting and possibly valid point, however I feel that if the money was able to be seized, it would have been. It has probably been ignored because it is safely in Swiss accounts etc.


And I was saying you were wrong because you change your perception of morality to suit your argument. I'll guarantee that you would change your mind again if asked to make a judgement call on US traitors like, John Lindh or Adam Gadahn (Azzam the American) both native born citizens of the US who went over to Al Qaeda. People like yourself seem to think that you can have it both ways.

Jewishness is not something you elect to be, it is a birthright, if your mother is Jewish then you are Jewish according to Rabbinical law, although the progressive Jews recognise apostates and also anyone with part Jewish heritage.

Once again you change morality to suit you answer and it just doesn't work like that, and we are not punishing them, merely righting the wrongs. Which in no way excuses the present generation as they have almost without exception willingly and actively supported or participated in the criminal activities of their forefathers. I just love how you attempt to mitigate the guilt of their forefathers by using the term "messed up" instead of saying something nearer to the truth like, "committed Crimes against International and Humanitarian Law"

You "mess up" when you make a poor decision" but when you elect to deliberately continue "messing up" it becomes an act of criminal stupidity. If my father set up a criminal empire and I continue operating it and refining it, I can't blame others when the law shuts me down, nor can I claim that I'm being "punished" for the actions of my father.

I am only posting this here as my last post to correct 2 things.

I have always kept the same stance regarding Israel and Palestine. Never once changed my morals to suite it (which if I did, really wouldn't make me immoral). Morality is just a person's/groups opinion of what is right and wrong. It DO change overtime as the person develops new principles to handle new situations.

When I said the "earlier generations messed up", I wasn't just talking about Israel, but Britain and the U.N as well (when they decided to let Israel become a country). As for whether Britain had the right or not to do that, I will not comment, it is unfortunate that the results were like this.

I can understand certain traitors, so long as they are not acting stupidily (joining terrorists who attack civillians for example); it would depend on the situation. Of course though, a traitor is a traitor, and when caught by those he betrayed (whom is now his enemy), he will stand trial. According to what I know about Lindh, I simpathize with him, but he is in fact a traitor. When I commented about your statement, you declared the act of becoming traitor as despicable; I have responded that becoming traitor is not always so as it depends on their motives and the situation.

I believe that the fight against Palestine and Israel is and have always been largely religious motivation. It has been stated by the Arab countries many times, and I will believe their word, as they have attempted to take Israel more than once.
November 29th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
I am only posting this here as my last post to correct 2 things.

I have always kept the same stance regarding Israel and Palestine. Never once changed my morals to suite it (which if I did, really wouldn't make me immoral). Morality is just a person's/groups opinion of what is right and wrong. It DO change overtime as the person develops new principles to handle new situations.
It wasn't any change that made you immoral, it was your original decision and continued support of a state born of terrorism that continues to commit terrorist acts to this day.

I know our opinions change, 20 years ago I was pro-Israel, and I also considered that I was morally correct, but upon reading the real truth of what was going on, I realised that that assumption was based on total ignorance of the facts, and so in order to uphold what was morally right, I was forced to change my views.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
When I said the "earlier generations messed up", I wasn't just talking about Israel, but Britain and the U.N as well (when they decided to let Israel become a country). As for whether Britain had the right or not to do that, I will not comment, it is unfortunate that the results were like this.
Well, that is not what you wrote, and as I said earlier am sick of trying to second guess your intended meanings as i know you just use it as a way of excusing your statements.

Once again your attempted mitigation of the facts comes to the fore. It might be said to be "unfortunate", if you drip soup on your new silk tie,... but the invasion and continued occupation of another person's land and the reduction of their lifestyle to that of animals, is not "unfortunate", it is a Crime against Humanity. By your reckoning it would seem that The Warsaw Ghetto was merely "unfortunate".

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
I can understand certain traitors, so long as they are not acting stupidily (joining terrorists who attack civillians for example)
Well, that is exactly what these Arabs have done isn't it? They have elected to join a terrorist group that has earned more condemnatory UN resolutions than every other country in the world,... altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
I believe that the fight against Palestine and Israel is and have always been largely religious motivation. It has been stated by the Arab countries many times, and I will believe their word, as they have attempted to take Israel more than once.
Not even the Zionists believe that, didn't you read my quote from Jews for Justice in my last post?
The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.
And that is exactly what has happened, they were correct in their belief.

November 29th, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips

Well, that is not what you wrote, and as I said earlier am sick of trying to second guess your intended meanings as i know you just use it as a way of excusing your statements.

I will use more side notes then, to clarify who and what I am talking about. That is all for this thread from me.
November 29th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
I will use more side notes then, to clarify who and what I am talking about. That is all for this thread from me.
It would be far easier to learn from your previous poor decisions, rather than having to keep making excuses when trying to defend them.
February 28th, 2012  
Jay
 
 
In the current Israeli/palestinian conflict i can see the reasoning for Israel to take on as much help as they can. when your enemies live on your doorstep you would have to take every precaution to ensure that they wont kick in the front door. I also do realise that the Israeli people do have aid from the U.S. and other nations, but having some nearby defense that also has a steak in their country can't hurt in the long run.
 


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