AR-15s for Police Work?

[Bror Jace]

After a shoot-out with a man under the influence of PCP and wielding a Kalashnikov variant rifle, the New York State Police are now asking for an AR variant rifle (semi-auto) for every patrol car:

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=900045&category=STATE

Opinions? Are these weapons appropriate for police work? Assuming the need for weapons with greater capability than sidearms or shotguns, is this the best weapon suited for the job?

 

[03USMC]

Like any other thing the semi-auto AR15 varients are another tool in the LEO's tool box. Alot and I do mean alot of agencies already equip their patrol officers with "patrol rifles" the AR being one of the more popular, but Ruger Mini14's, HK, FN and others are out there.

The patrol rifle gives the average patrol officer a stand off and body armor penetrating ability it also gives an increased fire power ability in immediate action situations.

The AR is the most popular because it's easy to adapt the weapon for the specific needs of the department and even the specific needs of the officer.

 

[PJ24]

Disagree 100% with most cops having ARs. Also disagree with them wearing BDUs and gay "Special Operations" patches and boonie caps. US LE is turning into a para-military. Makes me nervous.

 

[03USMC]

Disagree 100% with most cops having ARs. Also disagree with them wearing BDUs and gay "Special Operations" patches and boonie caps. US LE is turning into a para-military. Makes me nervous.

Guess that makes me gay, except my patch says Special Tactics ....to each his own.

 

[c/Commander]

It's a little different when you're an MP...

 

[03USMC]

I'm an MP in the Guard I'm a Civilian LEO full time.

 

[A Can of Man]

Nowadays even security guards think they're SWAT.

 

[Supostat]

Nowadays even security guards think they're SWAT.

And Russians joke that train ticket controllers also call themselves `Spetsnaz` :lol:

 

[Bror Jace]

There is a blog attached to the local paper that published the story. The first few posters basically said that the Colt AR platform was not needed by the State Police. Some even suggested the current mix of pistols and shotguns were perfectly adequate to deal with the situation.

http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/22569/a-m-roundup-100/

(Note: most responses were to other stories of the day)

A subsequent poster, "AR Sanity," very familiar with the Colt AR platform came in to defend the choice ... as well as the 5.56mm round for the role.

I posted the following:

"I’ve been involved with ballistics and firearms my whole life … and am now in my 40s.


I concur that the State police do not need a military-style, semi-auto rifle in every car. That’s a ridiculous waste as 98% of those rifles and the corresponding training will never be used. Public safety would be better served with those dollars going someplace else.


And I also agree that an M-16/4 platform is a poor choice for police work where you have to dispatch one (or two or three) serious troublemakers. Police should simply not be in the business of hosing away at suspects with civilians in every direction.


This issue looks too much to me like police wishing they had kewl looking toys to play with.


The most sensible thing to do is be sure that each barracks/station has a scope-equipped bolt action rifle and one person on duty at all times that has been trained to use it properly. You could argue about the caliber. I am a fan of the popular .308Win/7.62mm NATO round for this kind of sharpshooter work. Yes, even with expanding bullets you have a good chance of over-penetration but the shooter, peering through the scope, will usually have a very good look at what’s behind the target. The round is powerful enough to drop a person with a single shot … even if it misses the vitals or has to pass through a window, car door, a piece of furniture, etc … before striking.


Still think it’s too much? You can step down to a .243Win and still have plenty of bolt action firearms and bullet styles to choose from.


Better to CAREFULLY let loose one powerful round than have two or more quintessential adrenaline-pumped officers start pumping out dozens of slightly less powerful rounds down range. Of the two scenarios, one highly-trained sharpshooter firing one bullet or a bunch of rank-and-file officers letting loose with semi-autos firing mid-level power cartridges such as the AR-15/M4’s .223Rem/5.56mm NATO, the safety advantage goes STRONGLY with the single shot fired.


This issue reminds me of the North Hollywood shoot out a decade ago … where one trained shooter with a bolt action rifle could have easily taken out the heavily armed and armored bank robbers … safely, and from a distance. Instead the police, feeling that their service automatics and shotguns were inadequate, went for the AR-15s and marginal 5.56mm rounds procured from a local gun store … showing themselves to be little more than TV-addled amateurs.


The grown-up solution is a scoped bolt-action rifle and extra training for a select few.


If you want to play with the scary-looking black plastic rifles, enlist in the armed forces."

 

[c/Commander]

Yes. A million times, yes. Though it usually won't help for noncompliant entry situations, that's why we have SWAT.

 

[Spaniard]

Well I had my own AR 15 in 80 but was really a M16. Yes I would love for one to ask me how.

The new AR 15 Jams even the M4 M16 troops are complaining, that it's Junk, while in Fire fights Marines have complained about the stopping
power of the 5.56 round at a 100M! Remember 2.23 and 5.56 not the same.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html

5.56 has a thicker case web, resulting in less internal capacity. The primer pocket is crimped. Its generally loaded with 55gr, 62gr, or heavier
bullets resulting in a longer COL.

.223 is generally loaded with bullets 55gr and under resulting in a shorter COL.

Those are the only differences in the cartridges, and there is lots of bogus hyperbole out there. The EXTERNAL case dimensions are identical
and anyone who says otherwise better pick up a reloading manual and get educated. Pick up a caliper and measure an unfired .223 and unfired
5.56 and they will be the same outside, save manufacturing tolerances. There are no-notations about the "neck" or any other part of the case
people make assumptions about, other than less-internal-capacity. As Hornady 7th offers a minimal bit of history on the subject, below the
actual case dimensions.

The danger lies in the CHAMBER of the gun. A gun chambered for .223 generally will have a shorter throat which lends itself to the short light
bullets. If you try and chamber a 5.56 with a long 62gr or heavier bullet, it may jam itself against the rifling upon chambering resulting in spiked
pressure above normal/safe levels. However, this is simply a function of a long COL because of a bullet sticking further out of a case, and that's it!
If you reload you can seat any bullet out too long in any caliber and have the same problem.

Somehow, the above became misconstrewn a million different ways toward Sunday. The difference is in the COL vs. the throat (leade) of the barrel....
not the neck or anything else. 5.56 GUNS will be cut to accomodate 5.56 ammo with long bullets, which means any .223/5.56 AMMO will be safe
in said 5.56 GUN. .223 GUNS MAY OR MAY NOT have the rifling cut short far enough from the chamber to fire bullets with a longer COL, and there
are few ways to find this out including a chamber casting.



Even Marines are picking up AK 7.62 and using them instead of their own Assault Rifles, Google you'll see many Pages on this topic.

For police Work there's nothing like using a Shot-Gun, 3" OOO Copper coated Mag or Rifled slugs.
With a telescopic butt and CCO as a 9 shoot extension Kite for 2 3/4".

 

[03USMC]

"I’ve been involved with ballistics and firearms my whole life … and am now in my 40s.

Yeah, me too and I disagree with the majority of your opinion.

I concur that the State police do not need a military-style, semi-auto rifle in every car. That’s a ridiculous waste as 98% of those rifles and the corresponding training will never be used.
Ever hear "Train for worst, hope for the best?" or "Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have have it."?

And I also agree that an M-16/4 platform is a poor choice for police work where you have to dispatch one (or two or three) serious troublemakers. Police should simply not be in the business of hosing away at suspects with civilians in every direction.
Smacks of an ivory tower never been in a tight LE situation with "only" two or three well armed and committed individuals intent on their purpose and having the very minimal tools to deal with them attitude.

This issue looks too much to me like police wishing they had kewl looking toys to play with.

That's just arrogant, and uninformed.

The most sensible thing to do is be sure that each barracks/station has a scope-equipped bolt action rifle and one person on duty at all times that has been trained to use it properly. You could argue about the caliber. I am a fan of the popular .308Win/7.62mm NATO round for this kind of sharpshooter work. Yes, even with expanding bullets you have a good chance of over-penetration but the shooter, peering through the scope, will usually have a very good look at what’s behind the target. The round is powerful enough to drop a person with a single shot … even if it misses the vitals or has to pass through a window, car door, a piece of furniture, etc … before striking.
Haven't even given two thoughts to the logistics of your most sensible option have you...course not because you don't have any idea of how some situations shake out. Logistically in this in-sensible option would be a night mare in a fast moving critical incident or an active shooter incident, where the patrol officer is out gunned and out ranged and pinned down. Not only does it endanger the officers but every civilian within effective range of the subjects.

You are much to confident in the ballistics of the 7.62 NATO round in shooting thru cover and producing one shot drops, even with 175 grain bonded rounds, the effectiveness of the round and it's velocity and trajectory will be effected by shooting thru cover . Check out the circuit city hostage situation and see how plate glass effects the fight path of the 7.62 NATO round when the target is engaged from realitively close range , for a Sniper shot.

It is easier to train a bunch average LEO's to effectively use and engage targets with a standard rifle such as the AR than it is to train a hand full of LEO's to effectively use a Designated Marksmen/Sharpshooters/Sniper platform. It is easier to train the average person to use iron sights,ACOG's , red dot's or reflex sights
than it is to train a person to use a variable powered scope, mil conversion forulas, teach ballistics, spin drift and climate variations and their effects on different rounds at different ranges just to make them a basic long gunner, it's also more time consuming and expensive, Mister I'm gonna complain about the waste of taxpayers dollars.

Still think it’s too much? You can step down to a .243Win and still have plenty of bolt action firearms and bullet styles to choose from.

Faster round without a propensity for over penetration I can almost buy this. However it fires a smaller projo and that equates to less bullet mass and therefore less ripping or tearing trauma in the wound channel and shock wave trauma to surrounding tissue.Might be fine for a clean kill scenerio but those are few and far between.

Better to CAREFULLY let loose one powerful round than have two or more quintessential adrenaline-pumped officers start pumping out dozens of slightly less powerful rounds down range. Of the two scenarios, one highly-trained sharpshooter firing one bullet or a bunch of rank-and-file officers letting loose with semi-autos firing mid-level power cartridges such as the AR-15/M4’s .223Rem/5.56mm NATO, the safety advantage goes STRONGLY with the single shot fired.

Back to the cost of training, and not just intial teach em how to shoot training, but ongoing keep the bolt gunner current and on top of his game training.

Adrenaline pumped? Whether you are behind a bolt gun with your reticle on the bad guy waiting for weapon free, or looking down the ACOG of an AR your going to be pumping adrenaline at crazy rates, it's all in how your trained to deal with it, regardless of your weapons system.

You also seem to have the uninformed opinion that any "rank and file" cop will go into spray and pray mode, As a Patrol Rifle instructor both AR15/M4 and Remington 7600 pump action .223 caliber (yes our Deputies get to choose based on what they are comfortable with and it's pretty evenly divided between the two except that females seem to prefer the 7600 over the AR) I can tell you that the POST training for rifles is stringent and my Dept's training policy is above that and stresses shot placement, double tap and follow up as well as transition drills, it also stresses the deployment policies when deploying the patrol rifle. Our STAR team goes above that. I have no reason to believe that the NYSP one of the most respected LEA's in the country would not implement the same strong policies and training.

This issue reminds me of the North Hollywood shoot out a decade ago … where one trained shooter with a bolt action rifle could have easily taken out the heavily armed and armored bank robbers … safely, and from a distance. Instead the police, feeling that their service automatics and shotguns were inadequate, went for the AR-15s and marginal 5.56mm rounds procured from a local gun store … showing themselves to be little more than TV-addled amateurs.

Man when you gonna put on a class to train LEO's in active shooter / critical incident response and termination? you could probably charge 750.00 for a two day course, I won't be attending mind you but you could make bank with all the answers you have, you could single handedly change the face of LE training all by your lonesome.

Might wanna terrian study the area in which the North Hollywood shootout and tell me where you'd place a Marksman taking into account the following.

1. Both subjects are moving and then seperate going in opposite directions.

2. The streets have been shut down , but the businesses still contain civilians,

3. 200 yards is a long shoot for Police Snipers and many element commanders are loathe to allow snipers to make tracking or ambush shots on subjects preferring to only allow stationary shots in order to decrease the possibilty of misses that would endanger the public at large.

Christ on a jumped up chariot driven crutch!!! They didn't feel that their service pistols (Berretta 92FS) and Issue Shotguns (Ithaca Model 37 12 gauge) were inadequte They freakin were inadequate against the two shooters, who incidentally were putting down massive suppressive fire with drum fed AK's a modified AR an a modified HK. The shooters took multiple 9mm HP +P hits and 3"magnum 00 buck hits that did not penetrate their body armor or cause disabling blunt force trauma on impact.

TV-addled? Really, arrogant much? You actually pretend to know more than the officers on the ground that day? I'll spell out the reasons that they went and got AR's from a gun store just so you might understand it.

1. Service weapons were ineffective and the patrol and detectives who had responded were faring badly and taking casualties.

2. The shooters were shooting their way out of the perimeter that had been set up, that would have further endangered the public, (you know the people you pretend are in so much danger if a cop has an AR.).

3. The people who are issued the weapons that could have stopped the shooters, SWAT are assigned to Metro Divison and the incident occured in North Hollywood they were enroute but caught traffic, the situation needed to end, so they improvised.

Not to worry I'll still nominate you for the Monday morning quarterback hall of fame.




The grown-up solution is a scoped bolt-action rifle and extra training for a select few.

Not a solution nor a grown up solution. It's your opinion and an opinion that shows no understanding of LE incidents or training.

If you want to play with the scary-looking black plastic rifles, enlist in the armed forces."

And in your case perhaps you should get some practical experiance and training in how LE operates their needs and mission before you make sweeping judgements and statements.

Responses embedded. The mission of Law Enforcement is to safe guard the public first and the officer second. So your 'opinion" is just that and has no basis in fact. It's not hunting deer and it ain't punching paper at the range.

 

[PJ24]

If they want to play dressup and pretend to be "Special Operations," I'd challenge them to attempt some of the selection courses available. For the prior service guys that got out, maybe they should have stayed in. Then again, they probably wouldn't like that since SOF goes into the field sterile .. PD goes with every "cool guy" patch attached to their uniforms they can find.

LE isn't the military and the American public aren't bad guys. I've trained and trained with many civilian LE tactical teams, most I wouldn't trust on a one room entry but there are a few that know their stuff and aren't interested in the ego build. They're simply interested in doing the job right. Unfortunately, those types are few and far between these days. It IS all about having the cool tools and better titles. Anyone that says it isn't is living in a state of denial.

There are some outstanding individuals out there doing some great thing in civilian LE. And it's sad they have to get lumped in with the egos and the wannabes that don't want to work within their role. The guys that are doing it right see these issues and acknowledge them, there's just not much they can do about them.

I'm sure my opinion won't be popular with some of you. Nothing personal, just my own experience and observations.

 

[mmarsh]

Disagree 100% with most cops having ARs. Also disagree with them wearing BDUs and gay "Special Operations" patches and boonie caps. US LE is turning into a para-military. Makes me nervous.

I understand what you are saying and to a point agree. But overall I'm going to agree with USMC03.

There are police situations that require abit of extra firepower, and there might not be time to call SWAT, espically if SWAT is along ways away. I went to school in a small town in Indiana, in the center of a triangle between Cincinnati OH, Dayton OH, and Indianapolis, 60-90 minutes from each.

Now suppose something happened at my school, (like Georgia Tech). The town was too small to have a SWAT team of its own, 60-90 minutes is a long ways away in the middle of a crisis.

The police already have pistols, shotguns, SMGs, sniper rifles, grenades, adding a assault rifle (at least semi-auto) doesn't add very much. My knowledge of Ballistics is tiny compared to others but I always felt different tools for different jobs. If the police require a assault rifle to do their job, then so be it.

 

[Bror Jace]

C’mon 03USMC, don’t hold back … tell me what you really think.

I’m a gun supporter … and a LEO supporter … and I support LEOs with guns … but I’m still not convinced that every cruiser requires a high-power, military style semi-auto rifle. SWAT teams? Yes, by all means. But not every officer. As you know small-arms combat is not the primary job of law enforcement and the ongoing training demands (we're assuming this is done correctly, right?) seem enormous. When I was in the fire service years ago, I had a few LEOs for friends … so I didn’t form my opinions in an ivory tower.
Yes, it’s better to be prepared … but you could probably say the same about a hundred different pieces of equipment. You can’t have everything you desire so you have to draw the line somewhere. How common are the incidents where state police run into suspects wielding AKs? Once every few years? How many patrol cars do we have on the streets at any one time? The North Hollywood shootout was in 1997 and we never had an incident like that before … or since. Does every patrol car need to be equipped to deal with an event like that? Really?
If the NY State Police wanted to start phasing out shotguns and phasing in more rifles … maybe we could meet somewhere in the middle. I’m still not convinced they are necessary.
As for the North Hollywood shootout, I’m familiar with the incident but no, I didn’t see any confidential debriefs on the subject. I understand that the 2 dirtbags were hit dozens of times each … torso and extremity hits, correct? At least one of them had hard plates sewn into his armor. Once it went across the radio that the suspects has body armor, wouldn’t training dictate that officers aim for the head only? How many hits to the head could they, wearing only soft armor (balaclavas), take before going down ... even under the influence of stimulants? Were any of the shotguns loaded with slugs? If not ... then why not?

The movements of those two were followed by helicopters (I always wondered what would have happened if they had turned their guns up and fired on the helicopters tracking them) and I would imagine the police pouring into the incident were taking up positions ahead of them attempting to form a perimeter to prevent them from breaking out. As these guys were attempting to walk away (cars /trucks failed for a number of reasons) I’d rather the police they stumbled into be equipped with high power bolt action rifles with scopes than AR-15s with iron sights or Aimpoints. Yes, I know that the area was built up and a 200 yard shot would have been unlikely … I was thinking of shots up to 100 yards … possibly 150 yards. The scope doesn't just allow you hit the target at long ranges but more safely place the shot at shorter ranges ... but I'm sure you know that already.

I remember an incident about 20 years ago (saw it on the Today show) where a police sharpshooter actually shot the gun out of the hand of a suspect in a long-running stand-off. Not really recommended in most situations ... but that wasn't most situations.

 

[A Can of Man]

Both PJ and 03 have very valid points.
Police should have the tools necessary to do the job and it's rather unfortunate that it's gotten to a point where regular cops require AR-15s. I think it reflects a failure at a much higher level and it's quite depressing. But if it's required, it should be issued.
However, I do feel that there are lots of low speed folks trying to be high speed in all the wrong ways, that is, gear hoarding and dressing up like some kind of Special Operations team. It doesn't bring any peace of mind knowing that many police officers are a bunch of immature SF wannabes.
I'm certain there are good policemen out there but you know, I'm not willing to take my chances. I avoid cops whenever possible and I have a feeling that some guys running the tactical Krav Maga course are police officers which is why I'm somewhat reluctant to contact them a second time around.

 

[senojekips]

There's a lesson to be learnt here that no one wants to even consider. I'm certainly not going to waste my time starting a shitefite pointing it out again.

Until someone is willing to bite the bullet at a Federal level and do something, the problem is only going to get worse.

 

[03USMC]

If they want to play dressup and pretend to be "Special Operations," I'd challenge them to attempt some of the selection courses available. For the prior service guys that got out, maybe they should have stayed in. Then again, they probably wouldn't like that since SOF goes into the field sterile .. PD goes with every "cool guy" patch attached to their uniforms they can find.

No man sorry I respect your accomplishments and all, but the world is different civvie side. I know kinda where your coming from and I'm really trying to respect you but it's a a two street brother, so .......it's not about being on par with military SOF forces, it's not about patches, it's not about cammies, it's not about half the BS your putting out. Dedication and mission is not restricted to the military. And while your shitting on SWAT and Swat type units realize that you are shitting on your brothers who got out of the military. So in short ...never freakin mind.


LE isn't the military and the American public aren't bad guys. I've trained and trained with many civilian LE tactical teams, most I wouldn't trust on a one room entry but there are a few that know their stuff and aren't interested in the ego build. They're simply interested in doing the job right. Unfortunately, those types are few and far between these days. It IS all about having the cool tools and better titles. Anyone that says it isn't is living in a state of denial.

No damn body said the that LE was military, they have their place. That place is their community , are there farked up teams? sure, but don't broad brush them It is not all about tools and your over simpilfying the farkin issue. How much experiance do have with the civilian world that you can broad brush me? I really wanna know
? Whats your base line and how do you come to that conculsion? What LEO teams have given you that prespective? Cause I could broad broad brush alotta people.

There are some outstanding individuals out there doing some great thing in civilian LE. And it's sad they have to get lumped in with the egos and the wannabes that don't want to work within their role. The guys that are doing it right see these issues and acknowledge them, there's just not much they can do about them.

It's also sad that persons with no civilian LE experiance proclaim themselves the light and right and know what is best for civilian LE, The military and military operations are one thing....civilian and Civil LE are another.

I'm sure my opinion won't be popular with some of you. Nothing personal, just my own experience and observations.
Your right, and no offense but I think your farkin wrong for the majority and don't give two sjits if you disagree and want opine BS further.

Embedded BTW the freakin rounds are just as real out civvie side as they are in the military......

 

[PJ24]

Like I said 03USMC, it's not personal. It's based on my EXPERIENCES and OBSERVATIONS. No need to get defensive or hostile. My comments aren't intended to offend you or any other cops on this forum, but I won't claim that isn't what I've witnessed through firsthand experiences. Like I said, there's some super good dudes out there, some I'd love to have on my team, some with no prior military experience and some with.

 

[03USMC]

C’mon 03USMC, don’t hold back … tell me what you really think.

When I start holding back call the Doc cause I'm dying.

I’m a gun supporter … and a LEO supporter … and I support LEOs with guns … but I’m still not convinced that every cruiser requires a high-power, military style semi-auto rifle. SWAT teams? Yes, by all means. But not every officer. As you know small-arms combat is not the primary job of law enforcement and the ongoing training demands (we're assuming this is done correctly, right?) seem enormous. When I was in the fire service years ago, I had a few LEOs for friends … so I didn’t form my opinions in an ivory tower.

No small arms combat is not the primary job. But it has a propensisty for finding Patrol Cops first. Not the "SWAT" cops.
Special Tactics cops are a reactive group and when the feces hit the fan it takes time to get them there, time that Joe Schmoo Patrol cop does not have.

18 year old Marines and Soliders qualify one time per year in general. Cops two times per year, plus paper classes....soooooo.

Yes, it’s better to be prepared … but you could probably say the same about a hundred different pieces of equipment. You can’t have everything you desire so you have to draw the line somewhere. How common are the incidents where state police run into suspects wielding AKs? Once every few years? How many patrol cars do we have on the streets at any one time? The North Hollywood shootout was in 1997 and we never had an incident like that before … or since. Does every patrol car need to be equipped to deal with an event like that? Really?
Depends on where you work. I work in Meth heaven, I run into AK's SKS's, AR's etc every other day. They might not be firing at me but what happens when they do? Do I rely on my side arm and shotgun?

Incidents don't happen? I had a barricade incident with a subject armed with an AK four weeks ago...they happen ...but without the pubilicity.

Does every patrol car need one? Depends on where you are. Urban enviroment I'd say no. Suburan enviroment I'd say maybe. Rural enviroment where your backup is far away...yes.


If the NY State Police wanted to start phasing out shotguns and phasing in more rifles … maybe we could meet somewhere in the middle. I’m still not convinced they are necessary.
Maybe they need both? The shotgun is still a good GP tool, and the Patrol rifle has it's niche and applications. You would crap if you saw my trunk. M4, 870, Irwin, and an LL 870 next to bolt gun case.

As for the North Hollywood shootout, I’m familiar with the incident but no, I didn’t see any confidential debriefs on the subject. I understand that the 2 dirtbags were hit dozens of times each … torso and extremity hits, correct?
Correct. And it changed training and brought the Mozambique drill back into fashion. but the range in this incident was bad for both handgun and shotgun, hence need for longer range penetrating weapons.

At least one of them had hard plates sewn into his armor. Once it went across the radio that the suspects has body armor, wouldn’t training dictate that officers aim for the head only? How many hits to the head could they, wearing only soft armor (balaclavas), take before going down ... even under the influence of stimulants? Were any of the shotguns loaded with slugs? If not ... then why not?

Again range and ballistics, hard to get a short range shot with a 9mm handgun or 12 gauge shotgun when suppressive fire is raining down...also hard to get a shot with a 5.56 rifle...but a 5.56 would have had a telling effect vs the 9 or 12.

Most police outside marksman are trained for center mass, in reality head shots were not even thought of until after all were engaged, and then it was range restrictive.


The movements of those two were followed by helicopters (I always wondered what would have happened if they had turned their guns up and fired on the helicopters tracking them) and I would imagine the police pouring into the incident were taking up positions ahead of them attempting to form a perimeter to prevent them from breaking out. As these guys were attempting to walk away (cars /trucks failed for a number of reasons)
Traffic Helo's they wanted to be Butch and Sundance. Traffic slowed the police response go drive in LA you'll understand.
I’d rather the police they stumbled into be equipped with high power bolt action rifles with scopes than AR-15s with iron sights or Aimpoints. Yes, I know that the area was built up and a 200 yard shot would have been unlikely … I was thinking of shots up to 100 yards … possibly 150 yards. The scope doesn't just allow you hit the target at long ranges but more safely place the shot at shorter ranges ... but I'm sure you know that already.

You have to understand the scope. The majority of cops are not gun guys. Finding a marksman is rare and a bolt gun guy stays a bolt gunner...forever or gets promoted out.

North Hollywood in the workups is 100 to 125 meters at best, well within the effective range of the badguys weapons and you need three guns to cover in an elevated position. Undoable for the first unit...your long gun scenerio has been played out since 98 and found undoable by the best SO&T guys in the country including HRT.
I remember an incident about 20 years ago (saw it on the Today show) where a police sharpshooter actually shot the gun out of the hand of a suspect in a long-running stand-off. Not really recommended in most situations ... but that wasn't most situations.

That my friend was an amazing shot, it was also a BS shot that the sniper never should have taken. He got so lucky it isn't funny. Had my guy's taken that shot they'd be on meter maid duty right now.

AR's are not the devil rifle.