Another reason why civilian ownership of firearms work....

[5.56X45mm]

MACCLENNY, FL -- Police say a suspect was shot early Thursday morning by a man who was protecting his home and his pregnant wife.


Police are calling it a home invasion robbery.


A 17-year-old boy is in police custody, while his brother is in the hospital in critical condition.


Friends locked up the gate Thursday afternoon to the Macclenny home that will never feel the same for Jody Paul Thrift and his pregnant wife Sabrina.


Baker County Sheriff Joey Dobson says early Thursday morning, Jody Paul got up to get some water, and noticed his lights were out. But the power was still on at the house next door.


"So he knew that something was up," Sheriff Dobson said.


Dobson says Richard Munoz and his 17-year-old brother had cut the power and phone lines to the house.


Dobson says the pair then took a boat anchor from a shed and hurled it through a glass door.


"So [the victim] went to his bedroom, retrieved his firearm, [and] waited in his bedroom," Dobson said.


"And as [the suspect] opened the door, [Thrift] saw a flashlight, a little, small flashlight, and he began to fire. And he shot at the suspect, and the suspect fell right in his bedroom door," Dobson said.


As three Baker County deputies sped to the scene, they say they came across the younger suspect, scrambling through the woods toward the getaway car.


Deputies put him under arrest.


Sheriff Dobson says the older suspect, Richard Munoz, was carrying a cocked and loaded pistol with him the whole time.


In fact, when deputies found Munoz on the floor of the house, they say he was still trying to reach for his gun.


There's no word yet on why the Thrift family may have been a target.


Police are investigating whether the suspect ever fired his gun inside the home. He is in critical condition at Shands Jacksonville.


http://www. firstcoastnews. com/news/topstories/news-article. aspx?storyid=49393

 

[MontyB]

Wow thats almost as good as this one...

Phoenix police shoot man who detained burglar

September 18th, 2008, 9:02 am

A Phoenix police officer shot and wounded a man who held a burglar at gunpoint inside his home Wednesday night in Phoenix.
Sgt. Tommy Thompson said the incident occurred as officers responded to calls in an east Phoenix neighborhood about shots fired, a wounded man acting strangely after being let into a good Samaritan’s home, and a break-in at a nearby home.
According to police, arriving officers near 32nd Street and Osborn Road found a screaming woman who left her home with two children while her husband confronted an intruder. Thompson said officers went into the home, ordered everyone out and saw an armed resident coming down a hallway. One officer shot the 35-year-old resident several times.
Officers found a suspected burglar in the room the resident came out of. Police took that man into custody with injuries to one of his legs. The cause of his injuries isn’t known.

Both men were treated at a local hospital. Their injuries aren’t considered life-threatening, according to police.

 

[BritinBritain]

There is a crap load of evidence from around the world where a firearm has saved innocent lives.

I remember all to clearly a beautiful young lady aged about 18 came into my shop to buy a small 2 inch snubbie. She related an incident where she was raped by 6 men when her car had broken down close to a township near Cape Town. She stated to me,"If I had a gun, the rapes would not have happened, its not going to happen to me again."

Another incident I remember where an armed house wife beat of 5 men attempting to break into her home. She swears her firearm saved her life.




There was another incident recently in South Africa when armed 5 or 6 gunmen burst into a restaurant inside a mall and began firing at patrons cowering on the floor, one or two were wounded. A patron drew his own firearm and shot one of the gunmen, the rest fled for their lives. Without a doubt that one armed civilian saved a lot of lives.


Then there is the St James church massacre where political criminals opened fire on the congregation and threw grenades, one of the congregation drew his 5 shot 2 inch snubbie and returned fire. The attackers fled for their lives.

http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/chronology/thisday/1993-07-25.htm

Azanian Peoples’ Liberation Army (APLA - the armed wing of the Pan-Africanist Congress) operatives attack St. James Church in the Cape Town suburb of Kenilworth during the Sunday evening service. Approximately 1000 congregants were inside the church at the time. Using automatic weapons and two grenades, the APLA cadres killed eleven worshippers and injured 58. Four of the dead were Russian seamen attending the service as part of a church outreach programme. Another seaman lost both legs and an arm.
The St James Church Massacre was one of a string of APLA attacks and was followed later that year by an attack on the Heidelberg Tavern in Observatory in which 4 people were killed. Ballistic tests proved the same weapons were used in both attacks.
Gcinikhaya Makoma was arrested ten days after the St James Church Massacre. He was convicted of 11 murders and sentenced to 23 years in prison. Sichumiso Nonxuba, Thobela Mlambisa and Basie Mkhumbuzi were subsequently arrested and charged in 1996.
While on trail, they applied to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for amnesty. In accordance with its mandate that crimes for which amnesty was sought be shown to have a political motivation and that applicants make full disclosure of the details of the crime, the TRC granted amnesty to Mlambisa, Mkumbuzi, and Makoma. Nonxuba died in a car accident while on bail and before the TRC process was concluded. In its findings, the TRC stated that targeting civilians was “a gross violation of human rights … and humanitarian law”.

Several of the church members who were injured or who lost family members in the attacks, including one congregant who returned fire on the attackers, later met and publicly reconciled with the APLA attackers.
sources:

1. St James Hurch Massacre. Website: en.wikipedia.org
2. Truth and Reconciliation Commission of South Africa Report, vol. 2. 'The Liberation Movements from 1960 to 1990'. http://www.doj.gov.za

The moral of these stories are, criminals prefer unarmed victims and are cowards to the core.

 

[A Can of Man]

Amen to that.
If the bad guys already have it, so should the law abiding citizens.

 

[HokieMSG]

Agree, Every issue of American Rifleman has a section that details how regular citizens use their legally owned firearms to protect their homes and families. If you are ever in an incident be careful what you say to the police. Remember this statement. "Officer, he said he was going to kill me, I believed him, I'm really upset about this, I want to talk to my lawyer."

 

[5.56X45mm]

Police: Man killed while attempting break-in

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (Map, News) - Police say a 22-year-old man was shot to death by a Colorado Springs resident while trying to break in to the resident's home.

Officers say they responded to a report of a burglary in process at the home at 9:50 p.m. Sunday.

Whey they arrived, they discovered a man in the backyard suffering from a gunshot wound; efforts to revive him were unsuccessful.

Authorities say an investigation revealed the man was trying to forcibly enter the house through the back door when he was confronted and shot at least once by a resident of the home.

http://www.examiner.com/a-1767404~Police__Man_killed_while_attempting_break_in.html

 

[MontyB]

There is a crap load of evidence from around the world where a firearm has saved innocent lives.

I have no doubt there is but I am prepared to bet that there is an even bigger pile of evidence of innocent lives being taken by firearms, now I am prepared to accept that the problem isn't the guns themselves as a firearm is only as dangerous as the idiot pointing it which is why no one here is arguing for a firearms ban (a fact that 5.56 and his gun lobbyists continue to over look because compromise ruins the argument that anti-gun lobby are the extremists).

However I do believe there has to be functioning controls on "who" and "how" firearms are purchased because if you can do this then you can remove the "what" can be purchased restrictions.

It is clear that 5.56 and I have very different "Utopian" visions, his is a 1960s Western where everyone walks around bow legged, patting their 6 shooter and saying ma'am a lot and where the good guy always comes back from adversity to out draw the bad guys, mine is one where you just don't need a weapon to protect yourself.

Now neither of these visions are ever going to be attained because in 5.56s world the bad guy will always do what it takes to win while the good guy is never looking to start trouble and in mine there will always be nutjobs and criminals but I am prepared to be the majority would still prefer my world and I think this is the gun lobbyists greatest fear one day peace will break out and it wont be at the point of a gun.

 

[Rob Henderson]

That's the main problem with your theory, Monty... Peace will never happen unless there are weapons somewhere in the mix... You honestly think Hitler would have stopped if we had said "Please stop this." ? You think anyone evil is going to listen to "reason" or "logic"?

 

[LeMask]

I follow Redneck on this one. What he said is damn right.

If we ask people to disarm, the first to disarm would be the honest citizens. The criminals will keep their guns and we will have unarmed honest people facing armed criminals.

But I think that the main problem is that we cant ban weapons. Should we ban knives too? should we ban hammers?

You know the amount of damage a hammer can do? A determined person can kill with a spoon.

we have to accept that guns are tools.

but I think that we should have intelligent control. Like banning guns that are too powerful... We cant allow a man to have a 500kg bomb in his kitchen... Or a .50cal machine gun to hunt deers...

I think that we should allow every citizen to have a shotgun, a hunting rifle and a 9mm pistol + minimum safety training (like a permit to drive).

Or something this kind...

 

[MontyB]

That's the main problem with your theory, Monty... Peace will never happen unless there are weapons somewhere in the mix... You honestly think Hitler would have stopped if we had said "Please stop this." ? You think anyone evil is going to listen to "reason" or "logic"?

You are confusing better civilian arms control with a war, no one here is saying we need to disarm the military or even the civilian populous all that is being stated is that better systems are needed to ensure that only those who are safe/sane/smart enough to handle, store and use firearms should be able to get them easily.

You need to break out of 5.56's "they want to ban all guns" mentality and understand that you will never reduce firearms related crime, death or injury by handing them out on cornflakes packets there has to be some form of control just as there is with flying, driving etc because you just can't let any idiot who can afford a 747 jump behind the control panel and fly it home.

You know the amount of damage a hammer can do? A determined person can kill with a spoon.

Tell me how many people were killed by hammer last year?
Any significant figures on the number of schools attacked by crazies with spoons?

but I think that we should have intelligent control. Like banning guns that are too powerful... We cant allow a man to have a 500kg bomb in his kitchen... Or a .50cal machine gun to hunt deers...

Why?
Using your own logic a law abiding citizen is perfectly safe with a 500lb bomb or a .50cal machine gun.

I think that we should allow every citizen to have a shotgun, a hunting rifle and a 9mm pistol + minimum safety training (like a permit to drive).

Or something this kind...

Every citizen?
Mental illness, criminal record no problem, have a shotgun, 9mm pistol or hunting rifle and I hope you enjoyed your stay at the Ghandi institute for the criminally insane, PS please pick up your ammo at the gate on your way out?

 

[Rob Henderson]

You are confusing better civilian arms control with a war, no one here is saying we need to disarm the military or even the civilian populous all that is being stated is that better systems are needed to ensure that only those who are safe/sane/smart enough to handle, store and use firearms should be able to get them easily.

You need to break out of 5.56's "they want to ban all guns" mentality and understand that you will never reduce firearms related crime, death or injury by handing them out on cornflakes packets there has to be some form of control just as there is with flying, driving etc because you just can't let any idiot who can afford a 747 jump behind the control panel and fly it home.

When you show me a better system that can reduce criminal access to guns, I'll go along with a better system of reducing civilian access to guns. Until then, laws only apply to those who follow them. And reducing the number of firearms one is able to purchase, the type of firearm one is able to purchase, and how long one must wait before receiving said firearm, only reduces any chance of people defending themselves against those with guns.

Tell me how many people were killed by hammer last year?
Any significant figures on the number of schools attacked by crazies with spoons?

Never heard of a shanking? Hammers are just as violent as guns... Quite honestly, I'd rather be shot through the heart or the head than beaten to death with a hammer... That's just me though.

Why?
Using your own logic a law abiding citizen is perfectly safe with a 500lb bomb or a .50cal machine gun.

There is such a thing as overkill...

 

[Wallabies]

In all of those stories only pistols were used, and that was all that was needed. A pistol, not an automatic assault rifle or a submachine gun. You're right, people do need to protect themselves, but not with military weapons.

 

[LeMask]

MontyB, I live in a very safe place. All I have to do is to open the window and ask the people in the streets to call the police, and they will be there 5minutes later even if they stop for a snack... But a lot of people dont enjoy the safety I have here.

Of course, I dont have a lot of stories about spoon attacks... But I have a lot of knives attacks... Do you remember the crazy dude attacking people with a knife in Japan lately? You cant guarantee the safety of anyone. So you have to let people guarantee their own safety.

and you just dont have the right to ban weapons.

I say that if you are too dangerous to have a weapon, you have to be in jail/insane asylum etc...

For the others, it's "innocent until we can proove the opposite"...

 

[MontyB]

When you show me a better system that can reduce criminal access to guns, I'll go along with a better system of reducing civilian access to guns. Until then, laws only apply to those who follow them. And reducing the number of firearms one is able to purchase, the type of firearm one is able to purchase, and how long one must wait before receiving said firearm, only reduces any chance of people defending themselves against those with guns.

Never heard of a shanking? Hammers are just as violent as guns... Quite honestly, I'd rather be shot through the heart or the head than beaten to death with a hammer... That's just me though.
There is such a thing as overkill...

You know I hope you are better with a gun than an argument because you seem to miss the point continually.

Points to consider:
1) If you make things easier you make them easier for all for example if Joe Citizen can walk in and buy a pistol with minimal difficulty then so can Joe Criminal which one do you think is more likely to be a problem?

2) Yes I have heard of shanking but I have yet to see the head lines "prison shanking leaves 20 dead in 30 minute rampage".

3) Hammers, Shanks, Knives all have extremely limited range and require the user to be traveling faster the target a firearm doesn't.

The problem with the gun is not that it kills, lots of things do; the problem with the gun is that it is probably the most efficient killer of all, you have range, speed, stopping power and rapid reuse all in one item which you do not have in any other weapon.

The key to this whole process is not the banning of weapons but in finding ways that allow the law abiding folks to purchase firearms while making it extremely difficult for criminals to do the same.

 

[Rob Henderson]

You know I hope you are better with a gun than an argument because you seem to miss the point continually.

And I hope you're better at witty remarks than an argument, because that was definitely NOT the best work I've seen...

Points to consider:
1) If you make things easier you make them easier for all for example if Joe Citizen can walk in and buy a pistol with minimal difficulty then so can Joe Criminal which one do you think is more likely to be a problem?

Yes, but if Joe Citizen and Joe Criminal both have guns, don't you think that Joe Criminal will be LESS LIKELY to use his gun? There are more law abiding people in this world (for now) than criminals, so if the law abiding folks had guns, then the criminals would be outnumbered.

2) Yes I have heard of shanking but I have yet to see the head lines "prison shanking leaves 20 dead in 30 minute rampage".

Yes, because prisons have guards... When the policeman to civilian ratio is as good as the guard to convict ratio, I'll consider this point in the argument somewhat more relative...

3) Hammers, Shanks, Knives all have extremely limited range and require the user to be traveling faster the target a firearm doesn't.

You're right, and hey, if someone had a gun, then they could defend themselves against a hammer. shank, or knife. A lot of criminals don't use guns, because normally knives or some other weapon are enough compared to an unarmed civilian. I'd be willing to bet that if a civilian flashed a concealed pistol at a potential attacker, it would be enough to scare the attacker off... But if you make it harder for the civilian to BUY a firearm, then the attacker doesn't even need a gun...

The problem with the gun is not that it kills, lots of things do; the problem with the gun is that it is probably the most efficient killer of all, you have range, speed, stopping power and rapid reuse all in one item which you do not have in any other weapon.

The key to this whole process is not the banning of weapons but in finding ways that allow the law abiding folks to purchase firearms while making it extremely difficult for criminals to do the same.

But criminals will get guns no matter what... We cannot do anything to prevent that... You might be able to in New Zealand (who's entire country is the size of ONE of the United States, Colorado) but we can't do that in America... There is simply too much country to control.

 

[MontyB]

I am not going to get into one of these cyclic arguments that stretches for pages and pages stating the same things over and over so while I wait for something new to respond to I will leave you with a comment made about the aftermath of the of the Dunblane Massacre in Britain, the comment was in a paper I read while in Oregon.

It said the difference between gun control in Britain and that in the USA is that when the British looked at the case they looked at it from the point of view as how to stop this sort of thing from happening again, America never has.

Now maybe Britain has gone overboard I am not going to argue that because I don't know but they have been successful.

 

[5.56X45mm]

PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. -- A convenience store clerk in Pembroke Pines gunned down a pair of would-be robbers inside his own store.According to detectives, four men rushed into the store on the 7700 block of Johnson Street Monday night and one of the men pointed a gun at the clerk demanding cash.That's when authorities said the clerk ducked for cover under the counter, and unleashed a hail of bullets.

Officers were able to arrest one of the men who was struck in the leg by the clerk's bullet. He is expected to make a full recovery.Witnesses said the other men were able to get away in what appeared to be a black 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix.Anyone with information is asked to call Broward Crime Stoppers at 954-493-TIPS.

http://www.nbc6.net/headlinesonly/18381702/detail.html

 

[Rob Henderson]

I am not going to get into one of these cyclic arguments that stretches for pages and pages stating the same things over and over so while I wait for something new to respond to I will leave you with a comment made about the aftermath of the of the Dunblane Massacre in Britain, the comment was in a paper I read while in Oregon.

It said the difference between gun control in Britain and that in the USA is that when the British looked at the case they looked at it from the point of view as how to stop this sort of thing from happening again, America never has.

Now maybe Britain has gone overboard I am not going to argue that because I don't know but they have been successful.

And you bring up another country that is also about the size of Oregon or Colorado... MontyB, we have too much inhabited land to attempt and regulate guns to the extent that other, MUCH SMALLER countries do. Surely if the United States put it's entire national government at work to stopping the traffic of guns in Colorado, it would be successful. But we can't regulate Colorado 50 times over. Do you doubt that the United States is far too massive in physical size and population to control guns to the extent that New Zealand does?

 

[MontyB]

And you bring up another country that is also about the size of Oregon or Colorado... MontyB, we have too much inhabited land to attempt and regulate guns to the extent that other, MUCH SMALLER countries do. Surely if the United States put it's entire national government at work to stopping the traffic of guns in Colorado, it would be successful. But we can't regulate Colorado 50 times over. Do you doubt that the United States is far too massive in physical size and population to control guns to the extent that New Zealand does?

Oh bollocks!!
While the UK itself may be small it maintains some light controls on goods and materials from the whole of Europe and Asia which makes the USA look like pimple on Stalin's arse in terms of size, it is time you came up with a slightly more convincing argument than "can't win don't try" to explain why it is you do nothing.

PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. -- A convenience store clerk in Pembroke Pines gunned down a pair of would-be robbers inside his own store.According to detectives, four men rushed into the store on the 7700 block of Johnson Street Monday night and one of the men pointed a gun at the clerk demanding cash.That's when authorities said the clerk ducked for cover under the counter, and unleashed a hail of bullets.
Officers were able to arrest one of the men who was struck in the leg by the clerk's bullet. He is expected to make a full recovery.Witnesses said the other men were able to get away in what appeared to be a black 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix.Anyone with information is asked to call Broward Crime Stoppers at 954-493-TIPS.

http://www.nbc6.net/headlinesonly/18381702/detail.html

Hey how about this one...
Stolen guns used in fatal Wash. shooting rampage

Posted By ap 3 months, 2 weeks ago in News

SEATTLE (AP) _ Authorities said the man accused of a shooting rampage that left six people dead in northwest Washington stole the guns used in the attacks as well as a pickup truck involved in a high-speed chase.

According to court documents unsealed Wednesday in Skagit County District Court, Isaac Zamora stole a rifle, a handgun and ammunition from a residence near his mother's home in the small town of Alger, about 70 miles north of Seattle.

The Sept. 2 shootings that claimed the life of a Skagit County sheriff's deputy, two Alger area residents and two construction workers, continued as the shooter fled south on Interstate 5, firing at two cars and a Washington State Patrol trooper on the freeway, fatally injuring one driver.

After a high-speed police pursuit, Zamora, 28, surrendered at a sheriff's office in Mount Vernon, about 20 miles south of Alger.

Zamora has been charged with six counts of murder and four counts of assault. He is being held on $5 million bail with his next court appearance set for Oct. 3.

According to court documents, in a police interview after his arrest Zamora refused to discuss his specific actions but said God told him what to do and told him to "kill evil."

"God, why did I do it?" he blurted at one point in the interview.

Zamora's only comment in court when he was charged last Friday was to twice declare: "I kill for God. I listen to God."

Keith Tyne, a public defender appointed to represent Zamora, has said little about the case. After Zamora was charged, Tyne said, "Clearly there are significant mental health issues at play."

According to the documents, the events on Sept. 2 began with a 911 call from Dennise Zamora, the mother of Isaac Zamora, who called police because she was afraid her son was breaking into neighbor's houses, and might get shot doing so. Dennise Zamora has said her son has struggled for years with serious mental illness.

Deputy Anne Jackson, who had responded to a call about Isaac Zamora the day before in the same neighborhood, went to Dennise Zamora's house, according to an affidavit filed by Snohomish County sheriff's Detective Patrick VanderWeyst.

Jackson then went to the Alger home of Chester Rose, who had reported that Zamora had trespassed on his property. The deputy apparently returned fire before dying of multiple gunshot wounds. Her duty weapon was found on the property, VanderWeyst wrote.

Rose also was found dead at the home of multiple gunshot wounds.

The investigation indicates a rifle, a handgun and ammunition were stolen from a nearby house before the shooter confronted Jackson at the Rose residence.

Zamora then stole a Chevrolet pickup truck owned by one of two construction workers who were shot and killed at another nearby house, the court papers alleged.

As he made his way through the neighborhood, Zamora rammed the pickup into the garage door at the home of Fred Binschus, who was shot and wounded in the back, the affidavit said.

Moments later, Binschus' wife, Julie, arrived home.

"Fred heard Julie yelling and screaming and then heard anywhere from 4 to 6 gunshots," VanderWeyst wrote. Julie Binschus died of a gunshot wound.

Another neighbor, Richard Treston, told investigators that as he pulled into his driveway, the pickup driver rammed his vehicle. Both men got out of their vehicles, Zamora told Treston it was his day to die and tried to fire, but his rifle failed, according to court documents. Treston was stabbed in the chest, but survived.

Zamora left the neighborhood in the stolen truck and headed toward I-5, shooting and wounding a motorcyclist as he drove, authorities said.

He also allegedly shot at two moving cars on I-5, barely missing a couple in one vehicle, but killing a 64-year-old man in another. He also is accused of wounding a state trooper, who was shot in the arm.

 

[Rob Henderson]

It's a lot easier to keep things out of a small place than a large place. You never answered my question... Does the fact that the United States is among the largest countries in the world not influence the ability to control the traffic of guns? I can promise you that it is much easier to keep things out of New Zealand than it is to keep them out of the United States.


PS, the only reason I'm attempting a different stance is because you simply deny the concept that guns aren't only used by evil people. I'm only attempting to show you that there are multiple benefits to having more guns.