Another Abu Ghraib? - Page 6




 
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Boots
 
March 18th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
i don't play poker so;


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB122/

a secret 1992 report written for then Secretary of Defense Richard Cheney warning that U.S. Army intelligence manuals that incorporated the earlier work of the CIA for training Latin American military officers in interrogation and counterintelligence techniques contained "offensive and objectionable material" that "undermines U.S. credibility, and could result in significant embarrassment."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghr...aw_application

The United States has ratified the UN's Convention Against Torture and the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions. Although the Bush Administration has argued that prisoners taken in Afghanistan did not qualify as prisoners of war under international law, Alberto R. Gonzales, counsel to the President, has stated: "Both the United States and Iraq are parties to the Geneva Conventions. The United States recognizes that these treaties are binding in the war for the liberation of Iraq." ("The Rule of Law and the Rules of War", New York Times (op-ed piece), May 15, 2004).

The Convention Against Torture defines torture in the following terms:

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him... information or a confession, punishing him for an act he... has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him. (Article 1)
From the perspective of this definition, one very important photograph is the one shown to the right: a hooded prisoner, standing on a box with electrical wires connected to various parts of his body. The prisoner was reportedly told that he would be electrocuted if he fell off the box. The army claims, however, that the wires were not live and that the prisoner at no time faced actual electrocution, only the threat thereof.

If the prisoner believed the deception and was sincerely convinced that he faced the possibility of execution, then the situation would seem to constitute "mental suffering" as defined in the Convention. The motivation of the act would also appear to have been to obtain a confession or to intimidate or coerce him – purposes referred to in Article 1. Debate lies in the Convention's use of the adjective "severe" to qualify the suffering and the difficulties inherent in determining whether the suffering felt by the photographed prisoner was severe or mild.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghr...nce_of_torture

Reaction from the US administration characterises the Abu Ghraib abuse as an isolated incident uncharacteristic of American actions in Iraq; this view is widely disputed, notably in Arab countries, but also by organisations such as the International Red Cross, which says that it has been making representations about abuse of prisoners for more than a year. A former military intelligence officer with experience at Guantánamo Bay and Abu Ghraib alleges (see external link - "Cooks and drivers...") a systematic failure caused by a combination of inexperienced troops arresting innocent Iraqis, who are then interrogated by inexperienced interrogators determined to 'break' these apparent hard cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay

The U.S. classifies the prisoners held at Camp Delta and Camp Echo as illegal enemy combatants, but has not held the Article 5 tribunals that would be required by international law for it to do so. This would grant them the rights of the Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV), as opposed to the more common Third Geneva Convention (GCIII) which deals exclusively with prisoners of war. On November 9, 2004 US District Court Judge James Robertson ruled that the Bush Administration had overstepped its authority to try such prisoners as enemy combatants in a military tribunal and denying them access to the evidence used against them.

Three British prisoners released in 2004 without charge have alleged that there is ongoing torture, sexual degradation, forced drugging and religious persecution being committed by U.S. forces at Guantánamo Bay and have released a 115-page dossier detailing these accusations [1] (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/au...guan-a06.shtml). They also accuse British authorities of knowing about the torture and failing to respond. Their accounts have been confirmed by two former French prisoners, a former Swedish prisoner, and a former Australian prisoner. In response to accusations, US Navy Secretary Gordon England has claimed that a Navy inspector general has performed a review of the practices at Guantánamo and concluded that it was "being operated at very high standards."

Former Guantanamo detainee Moazzam Begg, freed last month after nearly three years in captivity, has accused his American captors of torturing him and other detainees arrested in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Mr Begg, in his first broadcast interview since his release, claimed that he “witnessed two people get beaten so badly that I believe it caused their deaths”.


The report points out several activities which, it said, were "tantamount to torture": exposure to loud noise or music, prolonged extreme temperatures, or beatings. It also reports the existence of a behavior science team (BSCT), also called "Biscuit", and the fact that the physicians of the base communicate confidential medical information to the interrogation teams (weaknesses, phobias, etc.), resulting in the prisoners losing confidence in the medical team of the base.
March 18th, 2005  
A Can of Man
 
 
Well, not all of us have the luxury of being a peaceful place like New Zealand. Surrounded by miles and miles of sea with nothing worth taking once taken.
Life can get ugly where a lot of us others live.
March 18th, 2005  
Redneck
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I take it for some reason you are incapable of reading any of the 5 links I posted first off or do you think that by not reading them your denials will be valid?.

I see no point in your responses at all if all you plan to do hide behind denial and ignorance.
No, I failed to find any proof in your sources that the events at Abu Ghraib were symptomatic of the overall behavior/policy of the United States government or military (since that appears to be clearly what you are insinuating).


As far as Guantanamo Bay goes (leaving aside all of the "alleged" events), the issue seems to be more one of what is justified rather than one of exposing torture of some innocent victim of American oppression. Does "exposure to loud noise" or breaches of privacy/confidentiality really semm to you to be something that is unwarranted given the situation? In case you've forgotten, a mere few thousand of my nation's civilians were murdered a couple years ago, let alone the deaths caused by that organization and others like it in the following time. I have seen you complain about the security and intelligence failures that allowed this to happen, but you equally loudly complain about all proposed and actual remedies. The Patriot Act and watchlists violate privacy, Gauntanamo is the hellish scene of loud music and lights, interrogation techniques are too mean. Until a viable alternative has been suggested and as long as they keep my country safe, I could care less about these supposed travesties.
--
Boots
March 18th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
Ah ok I was wrong you are capable of reading but not comprehension.

I think the easiest answer here is that there are those of us that believe that to defeat terrorism you shouldnt sink to their level and then there are those such as yourself who are so wrapped up in patriotism and blind faith that you think you will win peace through war.

Sadly we will never agree and I really cant be bothered sinking to the level of your argument so when you are prepared to be honest let me know I would love to continue this discussion when your argument consists of something more than the end justifies the means.
March 18th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck
Well, not all of us have the luxury of being a peaceful place like New Zealand. Surrounded by miles and miles of sea with nothing worth taking once taken.
Life can get ugly where a lot of us others live.
Very true and the reason for that is that we dont go around pissing the world off.
March 18th, 2005  
USAFAUX2004
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nulli secundus

If you look at where I circled in red. It is obviously a foreigner being pulled along by the jet as they take off for interrogation.
Really? Seems like landing gear to me...
March 18th, 2005  
A Can of Man
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck
Well, not all of us have the luxury of being a peaceful place like New Zealand. Surrounded by miles and miles of sea with nothing worth taking once taken.
Life can get ugly where a lot of us others live.
Very true and the reason for that is that we dont go around pissing the world off.
Why does everyone seem to give so much crap about what America does thousands of miles away that will never affect a soul in New Zealand or Norway?
I know full well that "not so pleasant" things happen in my country as well. The only difference is probably the lack of international exposure.
"The world" needs to re-evaluate their blind judgement upon the US. Remember that many of these countries who judge America have been guilty of even worse crimes in the past when THEY were under pressure. Germany, France, Belgium, even the UK and oh of course, AUSTRALIA. You've ALL done some absolutely inhuman stuff before. Right now what the Americans are doing is nothing compared to this stuff and the cause is a HECK of a lot more noble.
As far as cruelties in the world go, Abu Grahib is NOTHING.
What does Europe, Australia, New Zealand etc. have in common? They're very peaceful places with no potential for war on home soil... at least that's the way they see it themselves. So you have no right to judge those of us who actually have something on the line.
March 18th, 2005  
Redneck
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Ah ok I was wrong you are capable of reading but not comprehension.

I think the easiest answer here is that there are those of us that believe that to defeat terrorism you shouldnt sink to their level and then there are those such as yourself who are so wrapped up in patriotism and blind faith that you think you will win peace through war.

Sadly we will never agree and I really cant be bothered sinking to the level of your argument so when you are prepared to be honest let me know I would love to continue this discussion when your argument consists of something more than the end justifies the means.
You might want to slow down there hero.

There are those of us who are willing to actually do something to bring security to our people and freedom to the peoples of foreign nations, and there are others, like yourself, who are so wrapped up in pointing out where the strong have stumbled that you think you are contributing to the world.
March 18th, 2005  
A Can of Man
 
 
I don't believe the leftist rhetoric about American causes for war all the time.
I believe that very often America intervenes to make life better for those who are less fortunate.
When people saw the starving people of Somalia. Who answered the call? The USA did. Everyone knew the horrors going on there but only one country had the guts to do anything about it. There was nothing to gain from the Somali operation other than the improvement of lives of Somalis
Just why did America actually go through the trouble of trying to make Afghanistan a better place for everyone and for the first time, even the women? The USA did. If it was just Taleban stuff they would have left right after smashing them to bits, no? Why waste money on those expensive projects to help Afghanistan help itself and to bring an end to the tribal conflicts there?

I know a lot of our countries contribute, but at the point of the spear it was the US.
March 18th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
There are those of us who are willing to actually do something to bring security to our people and freedom to the peoples of foreign nations.
Wait a sec I will try to get some rousing and patriotic music in the background while I try not to laugh and to be perfectly honest I am not likely to be overly influenced by a man who's sole understanding of the world more than likely comes from watching Fox news while polishing his gun collection.

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