Another Abu Ghraib? - Page 5




 
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Boots
 
March 17th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Answer 1) No, I am saying that it is not your job to regulate myself or any other moderator or member of this forum. If you feel I need some regulating, contact Redleg, that's his department.
I see no point in going that far as it wasnt a major deal however as much as I expect moderators to uphold the rules I also expect them to abide by them (kind of funny as really this is a little microthread of what the main thread is about)

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Answer 2) No, because the crimes for which these people are being detained are in an entirely different class than normal criminal law, and the perpetrators and suspected perpetrators are themselves in a different class and are not protected by the rights of citizenship.
How do you come to that conclusion?
They are being held by the US and deprived of coverage of laws that are as much international as they are US specific essentially these laws are ones that within free societies are available to all as part of being civilised.

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You seem to be under the impression that the detainees were chosen at random, rather than being legitimately bad people, you don't really get your name on the type of s**tlist that would send you to Gitmo without doing some pretty definitely bad things.
To some degree I do believe they were chosen at random as without fail everyone that has been released through home (Specifically the UK and Australia) government pressure has been released after short questioning, if these people were indeed "dangerous" men I am pretty certain neither of these countries would just turn them loose.

To be perfectly honest none of this justifies detaining people for years without trial it is a practice we have come to expect from third world dictatorships and until recently the US has fought against.
March 17th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
[quote="Redneck
And you constantly jump from "allegations" and "probablies" to statements that the United States IS doing or HAS done something. I realize there is a language barrier here, so hopefully this will help future discussions:

US violating Human Rights is not a probability is a fact. You just have to watch the news. US has ratified the Geneve Convention, and US is violating it very usually(Guantanamo,Abu Ghraib...)
You say that I use the words of others, okey, you were born with all the info you use in your brain or did you read it somewhere?? I guess you read it, so you are using the words of others as well. Your problem is that you can not accept certain facts.
The people that are violating human rights in guatanamo and in Irak are soldiers of the US and they are representing your country.

You still do not have arguments or allegations.You do not say anithing.
March 17th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
you can add the US refusing to join the world court
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Boots
March 17th, 2005  
Redneck
 
 
No, YOU have yet to say anything of substance. You have yet to prove any of your accusations against my country and my service. As I said before, the legitimate violations (your favorite subject, Abu Ghraib, being chief) have been dealt with, but to reiterate:

THE PERPETRATORS WERE PUNISHED AND DO NOT REPRESENT THE ACTIONS NOR THE POLICIES OF THE UNITED STATES OR HER MILITARY AS A WHOLE

Gitmo is NOT a violation of human rights, as those detained there are 1) not being deprived of the basic human necessities, 2) LEGITIMATELY detained terrorists, 3) do in fact have access to the world and humanitarian groups through the machinations of certain bleeding heart groups who, wonder of wonders, are not denied access to these prisoners by the evil United States government (as far as viewing them and the conditions in which they live).

Full house: Logic over Reason.
Your deal.



And Monty, I full heartedly believe that the detentions are in fact justified, and are nothing whatsoever like the detaining of political prisoners by dictatorships (since when is being arrested for protesting the same as an arrest for aiding or participating in terrorist attacks? just curious, I don't think I got that memo).
March 17th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
THE PERPETRATORS WERE PUNISHED AND DO NOT REPRESENT THE ACTIONS NOR THE POLICIES OF THE UNITED STATES OR HER MILITARY AS A WHOLE
I think you are using the Ostrich defence here the fact still remains that that these acts are widespread and I think it fair to say that they are very representitive of US intelligence gathering whether it is "government" sanctioned or not is rather irrelevant given that it is obvious they know it happens but arent stupid enough to put it on paper.

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Gitmo is NOT a violation of human rights, as those detained there are 1) not being deprived of the basic human necessities, 2) LEGITIMATELY detained terrorists, 3) do in fact have access to the world and humanitarian groups through the machinations of certain bleeding heart groups who, wonder of wonders, are not denied access to these prisoners by the evil United States government (as far as viewing them and the conditions in which they live).
You are most correct Gitmo is not a human rights violation, the violation are the actions which are carried out there and unfortunately you seem to have the attitude that because they are in prison they are guilty and therefore deserve all they get which is rather a primative view on things.


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And Monty, I full heartedly believe that the detentions are in fact justified, and are nothing whatsoever like the detaining of political prisoners by dictatorships (since when is being arrested for protesting the same as an arrest for aiding or participating in terrorist attacks? just curious, I don't think I got that memo).
I fully believe that the majority of those detained there should be there as well however the fact that there is no recourse for those that shouldnt be there to clear themslves is a major error because the simple fact of the matter is neither you nor I have any idea why they are there other than because your government has determined they are a threat on nothing more than the fact that they were detained by the military intelligence.

PS this is a military intelligence that sold you and your government a war over WMD's and the impending Iraqi nuclear threat none of which ever existed so I am not entirely sure I would be betting the house on them being right in this case either.

Straight: Reality over Blind patriotism.
Your deal.
March 17th, 2005  
03USMC
 
 
I think there is some confusion here over what Totrture is as compared to Humilation Tactics. While I agree that the Service Members in question (who have been punished. Lets throw that out there again) were wrong. Humilation and torture are two very very different things. Naked Photos do not torture make.

As far as terrorists go. I care less what means is used to extract intel from the bottom feeders if saves one innocent life.
March 18th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
I think there is some confusion here over what Totrture is as compared to Humilation Tactics. While I agree that the Service Members in question (who have been punished. Lets throw that out there again) were wrong. Humilation and torture are two very very different things. Naked Photos do not torture make.
I would agree, but what do you rate dog bites, electric shocks and deprivation of sleep as?.

So far no one is claiming to have fingernails ripped out or hot pokers, racks and iron maidens but the gap between being too soft and full blown torture is narrowing every time a "humiliation" moves to the next phase.

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As far as terrorists go. I care less what means is used to extract intel from the bottom feeders if saves one innocent life.
I agree completely hell take them all out and shoot them for all I care but first "PROVE" they are terrorists thats all I would ask otherwise despite a sense of higher morality you are no better than those you hunt.

To quote someone famous:

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He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 146
March 18th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
Nietzsche was also the creator of the "über mensch" or "superman" concept. (i.e. Nazism).
March 18th, 2005  
Redneck
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I think you are using the Ostrich defence here the fact still remains that that these acts are widespread and I think it fair to say that they are very representitive of US intelligence gathering whether it is "government" sanctioned or not is rather irrelevant given that it is obvious they know it happens but arent stupid enough to put it on paper.

Full house beats a straight.

So it's a "fact" because you say it is? Damn, I haven't been getting any of these memos.

How about providing some proof for your allegations?
March 18th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
I take it for some reason you are incapable of reading any of the 5 links I posted first off or do you think that by not reading them your denials will be valid?.

I see no point in your responses at all if all you plan to do hide behind denial and ignorance.