Another Abu Ghraib? - Page 11




 
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Boots
 
March 18th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
just to quote;

"ouch"
March 18th, 2005  
03USMC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
As I see you do not know the difference betewen Geneve Convention and
UN Convention Agains Torture. The Geneve Convention is for war prisoners and the UN for all Humans on earth, not just Americans.

And suggest you aquiant yourself with both the GCIII which deals with the treatment of POW's and GCIV which deals with the treatment of protected peoples and get back to me.

As far as United States District Court rulings go. They are not binding to US Military Authority. Only to Civil Law Enforcement Authority.
March 18th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03USMC
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
As I see you do not know the difference betewen Geneve Convention and
UN Convention Agains Torture. The Geneve Convention is for war prisoners and the UN for all Humans on earth, not just Americans.

And suggest you aquiant yourself with both the GCIII which deals with the treatment of POW's and GCIV which deals with the treatment of protected peoples and get back to me.

As far as United States District Court rulings go. They are not binding to US Military Authority. Only to Civil Law Enforcement Authority.

I thought it was clear, but I will write it down again, hope this time you will understand:


Article 2
Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
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Boots
March 18th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:

(1) Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.

Is point 6 familiar to you???
March 18th, 2005  
03USMC
 
 
Yes and it falls under Article 5 GCIV. Any more silly lawyer games you care to try?

The Conventions also make no allowance for Nationals who cross recognized international borders. To participate in a war when their own countries are not threatened. AKA Terrorists. Hence they are illegal combatants and not covered by the GCIII or GCIV or UNCAT. They are criminals.
March 19th, 2005  
Charge 7
 
 
Well there's the perfect world we wish for and then there's the real world we have to deal with. I think Cicero said it best:

"Inter arma enim silent leges"

Of course I don't mean to say no law, but law tailored to the realities of survival.
March 19th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03USMC
Yes and it falls under Article 5 GCIV. Any more silly lawyer games you care to try?

The Conventions also make no allowance for Nationals who cross recognized international borders. To participate in a war when their own countries are not threatened. AKA Terrorists. Hence they are illegal combatants and not covered by the GCIII or GCIV or UNCAT. They are criminals.
it is incredible, I think I will have to repeat every thing againg so you can understand.

a) what is a prisioner of war? Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy: Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

b) As you said, the GCIV is relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, and a prisioner of war is not a civilian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But any way, all the protection for CIVILIANS is resumed here. People fighting are NOT civilians!!

Article 5
Where, in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions:


To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

Art. 27. Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity.

Art. 31. No physical or moral coercion shall be exercised against protected persons, in particular to obtain information from them or from third parties.



You are the one that shoul stop silly games, read all the conventions carefully
March 19th, 2005  
Redneck
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

From your own post there pard (your own highlight, too). They do not respect the laws and customs of war. So they are NOT prisoners of war.
Plus as 03USMC already mentioned, the majority of these terrorists are NOT the "Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory," they are foreign imports.


And kill the attitude kid. (and yes Monty, I am allowed to have an attitude, you are not)
March 19th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redneck
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

From your own post there pard (your own highlight, too). They do not respect the laws and customs of war. So they are NOT prisoners of war.
Plus as 03USMC already mentioned, the majority of these terrorists are NOT the "Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory," they are foreign imports.


And kill the attitude kid. (and yes Monty, I am allowed to have an attitude, you are not)

I guess that US respect all customs of war...... even if they are not prisioner of war you can not tortute them, it is so obvious....... that is even Funny.You should study just a litle bit of international law. UN critizes US for Guantanamo, International Amnisty also does, The EU does....Everybody is wrong and you are right....I shouldn´t be stranged....you live in wonderland
So you are telling me that there are no afgans in Guantanamo?? OOpps, I thought you were fighting the Taliban....
March 19th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charge_7
Well there's the perfect world we wish for and then there's the real world we have to deal with. I think Cicero said it best:

"Inter arma enim silent leges"

Of course I don't mean to say no law, but law tailored to the realities of survival.
Yes, I agree with you and with Ciceron:In times of war, the law falls silent. But there are certain things that a civilizated country should never do.