03USMC
Active member
Your behind. Concealed carry has been a fact of life in alot of states for at least 20 years.
Is America's gun culture fading away?
Your behind. Concealed carry has been a fact of life in alot of states for at least 20 years.
senojekips
Active member
Major liability, getting the weapons into the country is not the issue, it will be the ownership of banned weapons. Here in Australia there is a possible $50,000 fine and/or jail time if you are found with banned weapons. I don't think anyone has been hit with it as yet, but the law is there to be used, depending on how seriously the judge views the case. Never the less, the penalties are serious enough to keep most people from wanting to have illegal firearms.
As for the old argument about knives, the answer is the same in the US as it is here. When was the last time you read or heard about a person killing 5, 10 or 20 persons with a knife or conducting a drive by stabbing?
What you say about the anti gun lobby chipping away at the gun laws is correct, but if the US had introduced a few laws 20 years ago, this problem would never have reached the stage where it is now, where more and more people are siding with the anti gunners, because of the high gun crime rate. The longer it is left the worse the changes are going to be in the end..
When the laws were introduced here in Australia, I had similar thoughts until I found out the consequences of having illegal weapons. I used to hunt regularly and was going to keep my hunting trifles, there was no way they were going to force me out of my pleasure. In the end it just all became too much trouble, with gun safes, spot inspections and rising fees.
years ago i used to think nothing of walking through the outskirts of my town with my rifle over my shoulder. I guarantee if I tried it today I would have the STAR Force (SWAT team) surrounding me, and would no doubt be charged with something or another.
Yeah, it stinks! But that's the way it is going.
As for the old argument about knives, the answer is the same in the US as it is here. When was the last time you read or heard about a person killing 5, 10 or 20 persons with a knife or conducting a drive by stabbing?
What you say about the anti gun lobby chipping away at the gun laws is correct, but if the US had introduced a few laws 20 years ago, this problem would never have reached the stage where it is now, where more and more people are siding with the anti gunners, because of the high gun crime rate. The longer it is left the worse the changes are going to be in the end..
Don't ever underestimate your law enforcement agencies, if the laws are introduced, they will enforce them and depending on how determined you are to not hand your weapons over, they may very well take them from your cold dead hands.
When the laws were introduced here in Australia, I had similar thoughts until I found out the consequences of having illegal weapons. I used to hunt regularly and was going to keep my hunting trifles, there was no way they were going to force me out of my pleasure. In the end it just all became too much trouble, with gun safes, spot inspections and rising fees.
years ago i used to think nothing of walking through the outskirts of my town with my rifle over my shoulder. I guarantee if I tried it today I would have the STAR Force (SWAT team) surrounding me, and would no doubt be charged with something or another.
Yeah, it stinks! But that's the way it is going.
senojekips
Active member
I stand corrected, but the remainder of my statement still stands.
If this is the case, how come that it never prevented any of these crimes. I don't know, but is there a case where an armed student or bystander has prevented or resolved a school shooting? I know it has been the case on a few exceptional circumstances for other crimes.
Below is a list of school shootings since 1996 and to me it seems that USA leads the way by a long shot (excuse the pun)
Feb. 2, 1996
Moses Lake, Wash. Two students and one teacher killed, one other wounded when 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire on his algebra class.
March 13, 1996
Dunblane, Scotland 16 children and one teacher killed at Dunblane Primary School by Thomas Hamilton, who then killed himself. 10 others wounded in attack.
Feb. 19, 1997
Bethel, Alaska Principal and one student killed, two others wounded by Evan Ramsey, 16.
March 1997
Sanaa, Yemen Eight people (six students and two others) at two schools killed by Mohammad Ahman al-Naziri.
Oct. 1, 1997
Pearl, Miss. Two students killed and seven wounded by Luke Woodham, 16, who was also accused of killing his mother. He and his friends were said to be outcasts who worshiped Satan.
Dec. 1, 1997
West Paducah, Ky. Three students killed, five wounded by Michael Carneal, 14, as they participated in a prayer circle at Heath High School.
Dec. 15, 1997
Stamps, Ark. Two students wounded. Colt Todd, 14, was hiding in the woods when he shot the students as they stood in the parking lot.
March 24, 1998
Jonesboro, Ark. Four students and one teacher killed, ten others wounded outside as Westside Middle School emptied during a false fire alarm. Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, shot at their classmates and teachers from the woods.
April 24, 1998
Edinboro, Pa. One teacher, John Gillette, killed, two students wounded at a dance at James W. Parker Middle School. Andrew Wurst, 14, was charged.
May 19, 1998
Fayetteville, Tenn. One student killed in the parking lot at Lincoln County High School three days before he was to graduate. The victim was dating the ex-girlfriend of his killer, 18-year-old honor student Jacob Davis.
May 21, 1998
Springfield, Ore. Two students killed, 22 others wounded in the cafeteria at Thurston High School by 15-year-old Kip Kinkel. Kinkel had been arrested and released a day earlier for bringing a gun to school. His parents were later found dead at home.
June 15, 1998
Richmond, Va. One teacher and one guidance counselor wounded by a 14-year-old boy in the school hallway.
April 20, 1999
Littleton, Colo. 14 students (including killers) and one teacher killed, 23 others wounded at Columbine High School in the nation's deadliest school shooting. Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, had plotted for a year to kill at least 500 and blow up their school. At the end of their hour-long rampage, they turned their guns on themselves.
April 28, 1999
Taber, Alberta, Canada One student killed, one wounded at W. R. Myers High School in first fatal high school shooting in Canada in 20 years. The suspect, a 14-year-old boy, had dropped out of school after he was severely ostracized by his classmates.
May 20, 1999
Conyers, Ga. Six students injured at Heritage High School by Thomas Solomon, 15, who was reportedly depressed after breaking up with his girlfriend.
Nov. 19, 1999
Deming, N.M. Victor Cordova Jr., 12, shot and killed Araceli Tena, 13, in the lobby of Deming Middle School.
Dec. 6, 1999
Fort Gibson, Okla. Four students wounded as Seth Trickey, 13, opened fire with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun at Fort Gibson Middle School. Dec. 7, 1999
Veghel, Netherlands One teacher and three students wounded by a 17-year-old student.
Feb. 29, 2000
Mount Morris Township, Mich. Six-year-old Kayla Rolland shot dead at Buell Elementary School near Flint, Mich. The assailant was identified as a six-year-old boy with a .32-caliber handgun.
March 2000
Branneburg, Germany One teacher killed by a 15-year-old student, who then shot himself. The shooter has been in a coma ever since.
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senojekips
Active member
March 10, 2000
Savannah, Ga. Two students killed by Darrell Ingram, 19, while leaving a dance sponsored by Beach High School.
May 26, 2000
Lake Worth, Fla. One teacher, Barry Grunow, shot and killed at Lake Worth Middle School by Nate Brazill, 13, with .25-caliber semiautomatic pistol on the last day of classes.
Sept. 26, 2000
New Orleans, La. Two students wounded with the same gun during a fight at Woodson Middle School.
Jan. 17, 2001
Baltimore, Md. One student shot and killed in front of Lake Clifton Eastern High School. Jan. 18, 2001
Jan, Sweden One student killed by two boys, ages 17 and 19.
March 5, 2001
Santee, Calif. Two killed and 13 wounded by Charles Andrew Williams, 15, firing from a bathroom at Santana High School.
March 7, 2001
Williamsport, Pa. Elizabeth Catherine Bush, 14, wounded student Kimberly Marchese in the cafeteria of Bishop Neumann High School; she was depressed and frequently teased.
March 22, 2001
Granite Hills, Calif. One teacher and three students wounded by Jason Hoffman, 18, at Granite Hills High School. A policeman shot and wounded Hoffman.
March 30, 2001
Gary, Ind. One student killed by Donald R. Burt, Jr., a 17-year-old student who had been expelled from Lew Wallace High School. Nov. 12, 2001
Caro, Mich. Chris Buschbacher, 17, took two hostages at the Caro Learning Center before killing himself.
Jan. 15, 2002
New York, N.Y. A teenager wounded two students at Martin Luther King Jr. High School. Feb. 19, 2002
Freising, Germany Two killed in Eching by a man at the factory from which he had been fired; he then traveled to Freising and killed the headmaster of the technical school from which he had been expelled. He also wounded another teacher before killing himself. April 26, 2002
Erfurt, Germany 13 teachers, two students, and one policeman killed, ten wounded by Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, at the Johann Gutenberg secondary school. Steinhaeuser then killed himself. April 29, 2002
Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina One teacher killed, one wounded by Dragoslav Petkovic, 17, who then killed himself. October 28, 2002
Tucson, Ariz. Robert S. Flores Jr., 41, a student at the nursing school at the University of Arizona, shot and killed three female professors and then himself. April 14, 2003
New Orleans, La. One 15-year-old killed, and three students wounded at John McDonogh High School by gunfire from four teenagers (none were students at the school). The motive was gang-related. April 24, 2003
Red Lion, Pa. James Sheets, 14, killed principal Eugene Segro of Red Lion Area Junior High School before killing himself. Sept. 24, 2003
Cold Spring, Minn. Two students are killed at Rocori High School by John Jason McLaughlin, 15. Sept. 28, 2004
Carmen de Patagones, Argentina Three students killed and 6 wounded by a 15-year-old Argentininan student in a town 620 miles south of Buenos Aires.
March 21, 2005
Red Lake, Minn. Jeff Weise, 16, killed grandfather and companion, then arrived at school where he killed a teacher, a security guard, 5 students, and finally himself, leaving a total of 10 dead.
Nov. 8, 2005
Jacksboro, Tenn. One 15-year-old shot and killed an assistant principal at Campbell County High School and seriously wounded two other administrators.
Aug. 24, 2006
Essex, Vt. Christopher Williams, 27, looking for his ex-girlfriend at Essex Elementary School, shot two teachers, killing one and wounding another. Before going to the school, he had killed the ex-girlfriend's mother. Sept. 13, 2006
Montreal, Canada Kimveer Gill, 25, opened fire with a semiautomatic weapon at Dawson College. Anastasia De Sousa, 18, died and more than a dozen students and faculty were wounded before Gill killed himself.
Sept. 26, 2006
Bailey, Colo. Adult male held six students hostage at Platte Canyon High School and then shot and killed Emily Keyes, 16, and himself. Sept. 29, 2006
Cazenovia, Wis. A 15-year-old student shot and killed Weston School principal John Klang.
Oct. 3, 2006
Nickel Mines, Pa. 32-year-old Carl Charles Roberts IV entered the one-room West Nickel Mines Amish School and shot 10 schoolgirls, ranging in age from 6 to 13 years old, and then himself. Five of the girls and Roberts died.
Jan. 3, 2007
Tacoma, Wash. Douglas Chanthabouly, 18, shot fellow student Samnang Kok, 17, in the hallway of Henry Foss High School.
April 16, 2007
Blacksburg, Va. A 23-year-old Virginia Tech student, Cho Seung-Hui, killed two in a dorm, then killed 30 more 2 hours later in a classroom building. His suicide brought the death toll to 33, making the shooting rampage the most deadly in U.S. history. Fifteen others were wounded.
Sept. 21, 2007
Dover, Del. A Delaware State Univesity Freshman, Loyer D. Brandon, shot and wounded two other Freshman students on the University campus. Brandon is being charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless engagement, as well as a gun charge.
Oct. 10, 2007
Cleveland, Ohio A 14-year-old student at a Cleveland high school, Asa H. Coon, shot and injured two students and two teachers before he shot and killed himself. The victims' injuries were not life-threatening. Nov. 7, 2007
Tuusula, Finland An 18-year-old student in southern Finland shot and killed five boys, two girls, and the female principal at Jokela High School. At least 10 others were injured. The gunman shot himself and is in the hospital in critical condition.
Savannah, Ga. Two students killed by Darrell Ingram, 19, while leaving a dance sponsored by Beach High School.
May 26, 2000
Lake Worth, Fla. One teacher, Barry Grunow, shot and killed at Lake Worth Middle School by Nate Brazill, 13, with .25-caliber semiautomatic pistol on the last day of classes.
Sept. 26, 2000
New Orleans, La. Two students wounded with the same gun during a fight at Woodson Middle School.
Jan. 17, 2001
Baltimore, Md. One student shot and killed in front of Lake Clifton Eastern High School. Jan. 18, 2001
Jan, Sweden One student killed by two boys, ages 17 and 19.
March 5, 2001
Santee, Calif. Two killed and 13 wounded by Charles Andrew Williams, 15, firing from a bathroom at Santana High School.
March 7, 2001
Williamsport, Pa. Elizabeth Catherine Bush, 14, wounded student Kimberly Marchese in the cafeteria of Bishop Neumann High School; she was depressed and frequently teased.
March 22, 2001
Granite Hills, Calif. One teacher and three students wounded by Jason Hoffman, 18, at Granite Hills High School. A policeman shot and wounded Hoffman.
March 30, 2001
Gary, Ind. One student killed by Donald R. Burt, Jr., a 17-year-old student who had been expelled from Lew Wallace High School. Nov. 12, 2001
Caro, Mich. Chris Buschbacher, 17, took two hostages at the Caro Learning Center before killing himself.
Jan. 15, 2002
New York, N.Y. A teenager wounded two students at Martin Luther King Jr. High School. Feb. 19, 2002
Freising, Germany Two killed in Eching by a man at the factory from which he had been fired; he then traveled to Freising and killed the headmaster of the technical school from which he had been expelled. He also wounded another teacher before killing himself. April 26, 2002
Erfurt, Germany 13 teachers, two students, and one policeman killed, ten wounded by Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, at the Johann Gutenberg secondary school. Steinhaeuser then killed himself. April 29, 2002
Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina One teacher killed, one wounded by Dragoslav Petkovic, 17, who then killed himself. October 28, 2002
Tucson, Ariz. Robert S. Flores Jr., 41, a student at the nursing school at the University of Arizona, shot and killed three female professors and then himself. April 14, 2003
New Orleans, La. One 15-year-old killed, and three students wounded at John McDonogh High School by gunfire from four teenagers (none were students at the school). The motive was gang-related. April 24, 2003
Red Lion, Pa. James Sheets, 14, killed principal Eugene Segro of Red Lion Area Junior High School before killing himself. Sept. 24, 2003
Cold Spring, Minn. Two students are killed at Rocori High School by John Jason McLaughlin, 15. Sept. 28, 2004
Carmen de Patagones, Argentina Three students killed and 6 wounded by a 15-year-old Argentininan student in a town 620 miles south of Buenos Aires.
March 21, 2005
Red Lake, Minn. Jeff Weise, 16, killed grandfather and companion, then arrived at school where he killed a teacher, a security guard, 5 students, and finally himself, leaving a total of 10 dead.
Nov. 8, 2005
Jacksboro, Tenn. One 15-year-old shot and killed an assistant principal at Campbell County High School and seriously wounded two other administrators.
Aug. 24, 2006
Essex, Vt. Christopher Williams, 27, looking for his ex-girlfriend at Essex Elementary School, shot two teachers, killing one and wounding another. Before going to the school, he had killed the ex-girlfriend's mother. Sept. 13, 2006
Montreal, Canada Kimveer Gill, 25, opened fire with a semiautomatic weapon at Dawson College. Anastasia De Sousa, 18, died and more than a dozen students and faculty were wounded before Gill killed himself.
Sept. 26, 2006
Bailey, Colo. Adult male held six students hostage at Platte Canyon High School and then shot and killed Emily Keyes, 16, and himself. Sept. 29, 2006
Cazenovia, Wis. A 15-year-old student shot and killed Weston School principal John Klang.
Oct. 3, 2006
Nickel Mines, Pa. 32-year-old Carl Charles Roberts IV entered the one-room West Nickel Mines Amish School and shot 10 schoolgirls, ranging in age from 6 to 13 years old, and then himself. Five of the girls and Roberts died.
Jan. 3, 2007
Tacoma, Wash. Douglas Chanthabouly, 18, shot fellow student Samnang Kok, 17, in the hallway of Henry Foss High School.
April 16, 2007
Blacksburg, Va. A 23-year-old Virginia Tech student, Cho Seung-Hui, killed two in a dorm, then killed 30 more 2 hours later in a classroom building. His suicide brought the death toll to 33, making the shooting rampage the most deadly in U.S. history. Fifteen others were wounded.
Sept. 21, 2007
Dover, Del. A Delaware State Univesity Freshman, Loyer D. Brandon, shot and wounded two other Freshman students on the University campus. Brandon is being charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless engagement, as well as a gun charge.
Oct. 10, 2007
Cleveland, Ohio A 14-year-old student at a Cleveland high school, Asa H. Coon, shot and injured two students and two teachers before he shot and killed himself. The victims' injuries were not life-threatening. Nov. 7, 2007
Tuusula, Finland An 18-year-old student in southern Finland shot and killed five boys, two girls, and the female principal at Jokela High School. At least 10 others were injured. The gunman shot himself and is in the hospital in critical condition.
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03USMC
Active member
Well because in the cases that concern the US. In most states schools are a "weapons free zone." The only persons who may possess firearms in these zones are Law Enforcement. Same goes for churches, day cares, and any establishment who's main business is the selling and consumption of alcoholic/intoxicating beverages.
So even a legal CCW permit holder can not carry or possess a firearm in these places under penalty of law to include fines, jail time, and loss of CCW and or firearm ownership priveliges.
A person found to be caring a legally registered weapon even with a CCW permit in any of these places. Maybe arrested, weapon and permit confiscated and placed in custody until such time as bond maybe set by the presiding court or until a hearing in front of the presiding court.
Thats why the CCW hasn't prevented any of the above. Because due to back ground checks, application fees and required courses. CCW holders tend to be a pretty law abidding bunch.
BTW domestic violence complaint gets your CCW yanked on scene also.
So even a legal CCW permit holder can not carry or possess a firearm in these places under penalty of law to include fines, jail time, and loss of CCW and or firearm ownership priveliges.
A person found to be caring a legally registered weapon even with a CCW permit in any of these places. Maybe arrested, weapon and permit confiscated and placed in custody until such time as bond maybe set by the presiding court or until a hearing in front of the presiding court.
Thats why the CCW hasn't prevented any of the above. Because due to back ground checks, application fees and required courses. CCW holders tend to be a pretty law abidding bunch.
BTW domestic violence complaint gets your CCW yanked on scene also.
major liability
Active member
In reality, I wouldn't do anything if they came to confiscate my weapons.
If things were REALLY bad, like the US was going police state, I'd have to resist. I'd die, but then again, they aren't rights unless you're willing to fight for them. I wouldn't sacrifice my life for a pair of rifles that cost me $220 unless something awful was going on in the country.
If things were REALLY bad, like the US was going police state, I'd have to resist. I'd die, but then again, they aren't rights unless you're willing to fight for them. I wouldn't sacrifice my life for a pair of rifles that cost me $220 unless something awful was going on in the country.
senojekips
Active member
How true. There are far better ways to approach this problem.
(1) Put something (lots of things) away for a rainy day.
(2) Don't tell ANYONE, not anyone at all, that you have them or where they might be. And make sure that if they are found they are not on your premises nor able to be linked to you in any way. Buy them at a swap meet or whatever, use your imagination.
(3) Comply with all other gun laws to the Nth degree. Don't attract attention to yourself, nor talk in a manner that might arouse suspicions (such as giving advice like this on a public forum) I can do it, because all this comes to me as a result of hindsight,.... unfortunately.
For me and many like me it is too late. I tried to obey the law and before I knew what had happened, the little that remained was not worth keeping.
AZ_Infantry
Active member
And then the 10 other ARMED, LAW ABIDING patrons put 50 rounds into you?
Dude, your logic is severely flawed.
You are looking at it like crime is a 1-on-1 thing. Columbine, anyone? If even one of the wimps had a gun that would have never happened, because that 1 person would have drawn down and filled him with a mag of 230 grain instant intelligence. If EVERYONE in that school was armed, he'd of just got 100 times as dead 100 times faster, and everyone buys a beer to the dude that got the first shot off and capped his ass.
Where are you EVER alone? If you're in an alley at 0200 ad no one else is around, then good citizen or not, you're a waste of oxygen for being too stupid to know that situational awareness trumps anything else and, personally, I'd laugh at both the good person and the bad person blowing holes in each other.
Arming law abiding citizens works. The "old west" you talk about happened AFTER the idiot sheriffs made people disarm coming into town, and then the criminals just started illegally getting them into the town.
History is your friend, bro.
AZ_Infantry
Active member
Huh? MOST of my congregation open carries every Sunday morning - it's an after service comparison of guns and the PPD loads we carry.
And day cares, like churches, are PRIVATE - the state cannot make them deny weapons on the premises. It is the business' decision whether or not to allow.
If you are caught in a place that has a no firearms posting, they must ask you to leave and you must refuse before the police can intervene. Then the police will escort you from the property. Your CCW license is never taken away unless the state prosecutor pushes for you to lose if when they decide (if they decide) to bring trespassing charges. Otherwise, the suit is civil under tort law and your CCW is never touched.
And I know literally dozens of legal CCW holders, and not a ONE of us disarms ourselves just because a private organization has a sign posted. Not one. That's the idea of CCW - no one knows you're armed unless you're printing, which can happen, in which case they would have to prosecute you under the "we can prove he saw the sign even though he apologized and said he didn't and left" law.
Where do some people get their information? (Not meaning you specifically, bro - these are very common misconceptions spewed from every liberal that thinks they know what the hell they are talking about)
senojekips
Active member
Don't worry, the criminals will ensure that they have the upper hand. Crime is quite often a 1 on 1 thing.
My logic has a very sound base, because I live in a disarmed country that has one tenth the number of gun related crimes per capita than the US. http://www.scribd.com/doc/21670/Crime-Statistics-Murders
I can just imagine half a dozen persons "going for their piece" in a crowded convenience store, there'll be more dead and wounded than at Iwo Jima.
The WILD West that I'm talking about was the wild west that was responsible for the disarming of the townspeople. None of those responsible for disarming the townspeople that I have read about are written up as idiots in any of the American literature. They are in fact raised to hero status, and many of them were known gunfighters and thugs in their earlier days, hired by the townspeople because they knew that these men were not afraid to use their reputations and gunfighting skills to get the town cleaned up. That to me, suggests that the residents of the towns were sick of the violence, and potential violence bought about by having armed men in town.
My logic has a very sound base, because I live in a disarmed country that has one tenth the number of gun related crimes per capita than the US. http://www.scribd.com/doc/21670/Crime-Statistics-Murders
I can just imagine half a dozen persons "going for their piece" in a crowded convenience store, there'll be more dead and wounded than at Iwo Jima.
The WILD West that I'm talking about was the wild west that was responsible for the disarming of the townspeople. None of those responsible for disarming the townspeople that I have read about are written up as idiots in any of the American literature. They are in fact raised to hero status, and many of them were known gunfighters and thugs in their earlier days, hired by the townspeople because they knew that these men were not afraid to use their reputations and gunfighting skills to get the town cleaned up. That to me, suggests that the residents of the towns were sick of the violence, and potential violence bought about by having armed men in town.
AZ_Infantry
Active member
It wasn't personal against you, bro, I was simply using your post to frame my thoughts (I did that earlier but it is buried pages back and I didn't want to disrupt the current flow).
Buddy, the reason WHY we have such a high crime rate (firearm related) is BECAUSE most people won't arm themselves and get training. Of course we're going to have ten times your gun crime rate: We have 100 times the guns y'all do. We are a free nation, not obliged to follow laws not aligned with our constitution. And before you go jumping on me, that is NOT a slam against your country! We simply have different laws here, and the guns are already here, and have been here for 200 years. Ban them all one wants, but they aren't going away (and I'll never give up mine - I fought for this country's freedoms, I have an honorable discharge, I have a right to my freedoms).
But put yourself in a criminal's shoes:
You're walking around wanting money for your drugs. You want my billfold. Are you REALLY going to take your tinkertoy Jennings .22 caliber rusty revolver and kill me while I am armed with a Kimber .45 with Ranger STX rounds, 2 spare mags, and 25 YEARS of practice training for that very scenario? Will you take that chance? Because I am NEVER alone, I am never in a place where I am alone, I am always aware of my surroundings. You may kill me in the hopes of $20, but those 10 other people that see you are going to kill you before you ever get to my wallet, period.
I don't advocate arming the uneducated. I advocate arming and educating. Your gun is always the last option, your brain always the first. Put a loaded gun in the hands of 90% of this country, then yes, it'd be catastrophe. But teach that 90%, educate them, train them, change their minds, and arming them means NO crime in this country.
Mark my words: A criminal wants an easy victim. 9 rounds of .45 ammo out of a quality gun in my hands is NOT an easy target.
Check fire before you blast me, bro - remember, this is just my opinion.
EDIT: EVERY SINGLE ONE of those shooting incidents you posted to 03 had other people around. What atrocity would have transpired if someone, ANYONE, would have stepped in with a gun and stopped those?
So much for 1-on-1 crime. You're destroying your own sources, bro. I still luv ya though!
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03USMC
Active member
Huh? MOST of my congregation open carries every Sunday morning - it's an after service comparison of guns and the PPD loads we carry.
And day cares, like churches, are PRIVATE - the state cannot make them deny weapons on the premises. It is the business' decision whether or not to allow.
If you are caught in a place that has a no firearms posting, they must ask you to leave and you must refuse before the police can intervene. Then the police will escort you from the property. Your CCW license is never taken away unless the state prosecutor pushes for you to lose if when they decide (if they decide) to bring trespassing charges. Otherwise, the suit is civil under tort law and your CCW is never touched.
And I know literally dozens of legal CCW holders, and not a ONE of us disarms ourselves just because a private organization has a sign posted. Not one. That's the idea of CCW - no one knows you're armed unless you're printing, which can happen, in which case they would have to prosecute you under the "we can prove he saw the sign even though he apologized and said he didn't and left" law.
Where do some people get their information? (Not meaning you specifically, bro - these are very common misconceptions spewed from every liberal that thinks they know what the hell they are talking about)
You live in Arizona. You have the luxary of very strong carry laws, both open and concealed. I live in Missouri different set of statutes. Certain places are prohibited from carry by law. Churches, bars, schools, daycares, hospitals, gov buildings. Written into our state laws and enforceable by statute, Different state different laws.
I can confiscate and recommend revocation of a CWW under the statute.And immeditatly suspend a CCW for the following.
1. Carry of a concealed weapon in an unauthorized location (see above) I may also confiscate the weapon in question.
2. Domestic Violence. I may also confiscate all fire arms in the residence pending outcome/conviction.
3. Any crime involving violence to include assault 3rd degree.
4. Any type/weight of controlled substance.
5.Any crime involving intoxication
I don't have to wait on the DA I make my recommendation under law to the state dept' of revenue. If DOR suspends or revokes then the former CCW holder has to appeal thru them.
Business can place placards prohibiting carry of CCW but the law has no teeth and the most that can be done is a trespass warning (infraction) unless it's one of the locations specified by law.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
Florida is a pioneer in the Conceal Carry Movement. We started this back in the 1980s and our crime rate has been dropping ever since. Florida is a shall issue state. Which means if you the law abiding citizen pass the requirements for the CCW Program then the state must issue you one.
Must be 21 Years of Age or Older
No Criminal Record
Must be an American Citizen and a Resident of Florida for 6 months or more
Must pass Required CCW Class and prove to an NRA Certified Firearms Instructor that you can handle a firearm safely and hit the target
Must submit a passport photo along with a check and finger prints
If you pass the background check and everything is in order the state must issue you a CCW Permit within 90 days
Locations that you cannot carry at.
· Any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05
· any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station;
· any detention facility, prison, or jail;
· any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom;
· any polling place;
· any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district;
· any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof;
· any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms;
· any school administration building;
· any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;
· any elementary or secondary school facility;
· any area vocational technical center;
· any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile;
· inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or
· any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law
Florida law has what is called the castle doctrine.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person's dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) "Dwelling" means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) "Residence" means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
As a Law Enforcement Officer I can carry anywhere and every if I am allowed under my department SOPs to carry my firearm off-duty under the authority and powers as if I was one duty. I am so I do so. I can use my firearm in a law enforcement role (offensive action) when I'm off duty if I need to.
If I was not allowed to carry off duty as a LEO then under Florida law I am allowed to carry as if I had a CCW Permit. If I carry under this right then I am only allowed to carry under the provisions of the Florida CCW Permit and I can only use my firearm in defensive action.
I have a CCW Permit and I carry under the provisions as a Off Duty Officer. Also under Federal Law, HR 218 Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act. I can carry nation wide (fifty state and all territories ) with a certain amount of restrictions (modeled after the Florida restrictions) if I am allowed to carry off-duty by my PD. I can carry in places like Washington DC where only police can own and carry firearms. This law was passed because of the higher crime rates in places like Washington DC and Chicago because of their gun bans from law abiding citizens. I wish HR 218 covered all citizens of the USA and not just Current and Retired LEOs. I see that has class discrimination but I believe if enough officers push the issue then a bill will be passed in which there is a Federal Law which states anyone with a CCW Permit can carry in all fifty states and territories.
Oh and in Florida the "No Gun" Signs posted in businesses have no legal authority. The store owner/manager must inform you in person that you cannot carry in the store. If you do not listen to their request then a Law Enforcement Officer must inform you. if you still do not listen then you will be charged with Trespassing with a firearm which is a felony. But here is a catch.... if it's concealed then how does the store owner/manager know? They don't hence why there are never cases with this issue.
The idea behind conceal carry is that the criminal does not know how is carrying a firearm. It is much like the mind field. Anyone could be armed and everyone could not be armed. It's the risk that the criminal takes.
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senojekips
Active member
I wish it was.
Our present gun laws stink in my opinion. They are an ill considered knee jerk reaction to the actions of one person, who, if the law enforcement body's were doing their business, should never have been allowed to own firearms in the first place. This man was known to have issues.
What I'm trying to say is that moderation is the answer before you end up like us, due to the actions of a few. although I'm deeply distrustful of CCW, to me, it's a bit like saying there are a few rogue countries out there with WMD, the answer is, for every country to have them.
I owned a small arsenal of weapons that would have me thrown in jail today (Not as many as Luis though). I lost virtually everything I treasured in life other than my family.
I would hate to see the anti gunners have their way in the US. I dislike their aims, and the few that I have met personally (Australian) were what I call "Namby Pambys" totally lacking in moral, intestinal and physical fortitude. In short, they stand for everything I detest in a person.
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justin1552
Hurr Durr
Guns are good.
Visit :
http://www.lneilsmith.org/
Libertarian science fiction author. There are two free e-books on his site presented as cartoons which I liked...
Lonnie Courtney Clay
:horsie:
pixiedustboo
Redfidelboo
CCW, rules, rules, rules.
Why even bother carrying if you can't carry anywhere?
Why even bother carrying if you can't carry anywhere?
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Well, reading the list I can see why a person shouldn't be allowed to carry it in those places mentioned.
But basically other than that, should be fine.
But basically other than that, should be fine.
I read an article recently, which I have now mislaid, where some big time villain, or ex-villain in USA was explaining that the very worst thing for USA was a ban on owning guns. He said that the criminals could always get all the guns they want, and to take arms from all the good guys would be playing right into their hands, thank you kindly!
justin1552
Hurr Durr
That's exactly what I agree with and inevitably will happen. Criminals break laws, they don't care what the government does.