Is America's gun culture fading away?

We had a study done in Michigan not to long ago and those with legal CCW's that carried have proven it to be a fact that there is not a problem with people who carry legally.

I say arm all good citizens, throw them in for a few classes, give them CCW's and send them out.

Detroit would get safer I think. And Flint and Saginaw for that matter.
 
pixiedustboo said:
We had a study done in Michigan not to long ago and those with legal CCW's that carried have proven it to be a fact that there is not a problem with people who carry legally.

I say arm all good citizens, throw them in for a few classes, give them CCW's and send them out.

Detroit would get safer I think. And Flint and Saginaw for that matter.
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Did you know we had a study done by the carpet industry that showed 100% of the people that died on weekends don't show up for work on Monday the conclusion is that death is bad for carpet production.

Anyway this might have been over looked in the process but I would almost bet that a lot of criminals don't bother getting CCW's, the problem is not with law abiding citizens it is with those who choose not to follow the law.

If you think that arming the population is going to somehow scare off criminals you are wrong unless of course you think that the local gun totting thug is going to come up to you and introduce himself as an armed offender before pulling his gun, he will always have the advantage as he gets to choose the time and the place.

If you think that criminals are cowards and that an armed society is a polite one as 5.56 does I would suggest that you read his posts about the number of police officers shot in Florida in the line of duty, I seriously doubt that a person who can shoot someone they know to be armed and trained to use those arms, who will be backed by an entire department of armed police within minutes can be called a coward, stupid,mental or evil certainly but not a coward.
 
Smart criminals, conflict in terms there, maybe crafty criminals, know that any crime committed using a firearm is punished more harshly than one using a club, knife, or just brute force. Being high on drugs makes them more aggressive and harder to put down, even with a 9mm. I hold our police forces in the highest esteem but they can't be everywhere and part of being a criminal is knowing where they're not. There are more victims and innocent bystanders being killed because of rule no. 1, don't leave any wittenesses.

As for the wild west, Wyatt Earp would have rather come up behind a drunk and use the butt of a shotgun on his head, and for the hard to please, use the other end. The weapons of choice were rifle, shotgun, or pistol in that order.
 
MontyB said:
Did you know we had a study done by the carpet industry that showed 100% of the people that died on weekends don't show up for work on Monday the conclusion is that death is bad for carpet production.

Anyway this might have been over looked in the process but I would almost bet that a lot of criminals don't bother getting CCW's, the problem is not with law abiding citizens it is with those who choose not to follow the law.

If you think that arming the population is going to somehow scare off criminals you are wrong unless of course you think that the local gun totting thug is going to come up to you and introduce himself as an armed offender before pulling his gun, he will always have the advantage as he gets to choose the time and the place.

If you think that criminals are cowards and that an armed society is a polite one as 5.56 does I would suggest that you read his posts about the number of police officers shot in Florida in the line of duty, I seriously doubt that a person who can shoot someone they know to be armed and trained to use those arms, who will be backed by an entire department of armed police within minutes can be called a coward, stupid,mental or evil certainly but not a coward.
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Excuse me all to hell.

At least said citizens would stand a chance. That is what I'm getting at.
 
pixiedustboo said:
Excuse me all to hell.

At least said citizens would stand a chance. That is what I'm getting at.
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A chance at what?
You only have two options:

1) What until you know they mean you harm at which point you are at a major disadvantage.
2) Open fire on anyone that looks dodgy and hope like hell they were all after you.

I will put money on the fact that in either case you have a very high chance of being on the losing end whether it be getting shot going for a weapon or accidentally shooting an innocent person that just happened to look dodgy.

Unfortunately 5.56's "Polite society" will in the end simply be a "Scared society".
 
I must agree with Monty, the only chance that improves with everybody being armed, is the chance that the criminal will not hesitate to use the advantage that he has.

Just put yourself in his shoes for a moment. Here you are sticking up the local convenience store and you know that the proprietor is armed. You are nervous, and he makes a move you had not counted on. Is he reaching for his weapon??.... Are you going to wait and see, and perhaps start wearing angry holes in your hide or are you going to stop him.

You have already broken the law and you look like you could die at a moments notice, are you going to just stand there, or maybe you see yourself as being able to outrun a .38 special or .357. No, you have gun in your hand and it's already pointed in the right direction, if you pull the trigger now, you might just stand a chance of walking away... for the moment.
 
The number of police shootings in Florida is rather high but it is still very rare. Out of 150,000 officers serving in Florida, 4 were killed in South Florida.

One was killed by his owner service revolver. (Ambush)
One was killed by multiple suspects from a car. (Ambush)
One was killed by a rifle armed suspect while the officer was still in his car. (Ambush)
One was killed in his car while off duty and getting in the middle of a gang fight in a very bad area of town. (Cross Fire)

Two officers a couple of counties north of me were killed by their own partners during a high speed chase.

I deal with a large number of violent suspects. 99.9% of them are not armed with firearms. I ahve dealt with armed suspects in the past. But I have also dealt with calls in which a citizen was armed and defended him/her self from an attacker.

There are 150,000 officers in the State of Florida. Out of that half of them are off every day. So that leaves 75,000 officers on duty during a shift. Out of that, about a good third of them are not on the street. They're Duty SGTs and Duty Officers sitting at the station reviewing paper work, etc... Detectives do not perform road patrols. They are dispatched to the scene of a crime after the scene has been roped off and deemed safe for the investigation. So that's about 25,000 officers on duty for a State that has a population of 15,982,378.

My numbers of LEOs in the entire state of Florida might be high also. The largest PD in the State is the Miami-Dade County Police Department with a work sworn police force of 2,900. So I could be way off in my numbers of total sworn officers.

So out of a population of 15,982,378 people the police cannot be everywhere. Florida crime rate has been dropping since it started the Conceal Weapon Permit Program in the 1980s. Yes, some spots in Florida are getting a little bad but that happens. The City of Miami used to be a ghetto but today it's becoming a new Rich Art Deco location to live with Million Dollar High Rises. The City of Miami beach in the 1980s was nothing but old jewish folks waiting for the Grim Ripper to come and take them. Todat Miami Beach is the Number One Party Capital of the world. It's has some of the richest houses and high rises in the USA. Kendall, twenty years ago did not exist. It was Farm land and Everglades.

I still stand by an Armed Society is a Polite Society. Why? Because criminals will break the law period. Limiting Law Abiding Citizens from being able to defend themselves and their loved ones from criminals is stupid and a waste of lives. Look at history and you shall see.
 
Not to mention the fact that more cops are killed each year being struck by non-driving ****'s while working accident's, drunk stop's etc. Lets outlaw cars.
 
5.56X45mm said:
I still stand by an Armed Society is a Polite Society. Why? Because criminals will break the law period. Limiting Law Abiding Citizens from being able to defend themselves and their loved ones from criminals is stupid and a waste of lives. Look at history and you shall see.
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Where in history has this been the case?
Off hand I can't think of any armed societies providing a Utopian outlook on crime maybe some examples will help.

03USMC said:
Not to mention the fact that more cops are killed each year being struck by non-driving ****'s while working accident's, drunk stop's etc. Lets outlaw cars.
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But this is not the point being made, it has been stated that criminals are cowards who when confronted run away I am simply pointing out that some don't using the example of police shootings as an example, basically being armed is no guarantee that criminals will not attack you therefore the "armed society" model is flawed unless you are prepared to attack first and then it just becomes a dangerous, paranoid and scared society.
 
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Sharing something I had on my blog regarding this topic.


Gun Control – The Beginning of the End of
Democracy in America
​

Wake up and read....

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY



In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
------------------------------
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-----------------------------
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
------------------------------
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:

List of 7 items: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent.

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note, that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort, and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'.
Without them, we are 'subjects'.
​

Do you value your freedom? Fight for your right to bear arms.



*Copied and pasted from a forum post.
Checked on SNOPES.com, factual information given.*
 
So do we expect that sometime soon Aussies will be rounded up and exterminated and New Zealand must be well overdue as we have had gun control of decades now.

So what you are saying is that gun control leads to dictatorships, sectarian violence and ethnic cleansing?

There is a pretty big jump in the logic process going on to link all these events to gun control still I could probably link them to an increase in green houses gases if I looked hard enough, however I will let the Aussies argue the validity the Australian crime statistics you have presented.

Also if armed societies are are safe societies them places like Baghdad and Mogadishu should be the safest cities on earth.
 
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MontyB said:
But this is not the point being made, it has been stated that criminals are cowards who when confronted run away I am simply pointing out that some don't using the example of police shootings as an example, basically being armed is no guarantee that criminals will not attack you therefore the "armed society" model is flawed unless you are prepared to attack first and then it just becomes a dangerous, paranoid and scared society.
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Perhaps myself or Officer 5.56 should have qualified the remark about the level of cowardice in criminals. So I'll go ahead and do that now.

The majority of criminals I deal with on a daily basis. Lets say 99.7 % are cowards. They choose to prey on the weak and those who have little chance of defending themselves. They do not want to deal with victims who might fight back.

Yes that.3 % is out there. They are the dedicated thug bangers and bangettes, dealers moving major federal time wieght, Third strike parolees, and scumbags who just committed a crime thats probably gonna earn them the needle.

These people (term used loosely) will always have guns and be willing to use them. If you collected all the guns in the US took them to a smelter and turned them into school lockers. These guys would have guns. They'd get them they'd have them they would use them.

Thats the problem with gun control. It punishes the law biding. They can't have guns. The scumbags who didn't obey the law in the first place don't care they still have them.
 
03USMC said:
Thats the problem with gun control. It punishes the law biding. They can't have guns. The scumbags who didn't obey the law in the first place don't care they still have them.
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I certainly don't disagree with you but I don't think that the answer is to hand out pistols with birth certificates and this is the point that Spike made right back at the start of this thread...

The biggest problem that i see will be trying to get sensible change. The harder the NRA push in one direction, the harder their opponents are going to push against them, consequently the argument becomes highly radicalised. If this attitude continues, and I'm sure that it will, the outcome, what ever way it goes, will not be good.
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As a firearms owner and collector(and in this country it takes a lot of work to maintain a collectors license) I would hate to have to turn them in but given the choice of seeing everyone wandering the streets armed to the teeth or no one having them I will take no one any day and I think you will find that thinking in the US is not all that different.
My personal opinion is that change is coming and your choice is to come up with a viable and working system now or have someone create a system for you, I know which I would prefer.
 
03USMC, you are absolutely correct when you say that the criminals will always have guns, as far as I'm concerned there is no solution to this. What I can't agree on is having every person in the country walking around all tooled up. It's a disaster looking for a place to happen. It could certainly give a whole new meaning to "road rage" for example. I can already see it, "I thought he was going to shoot me,... so I shot him first". Whereas, if neither of them were armed, it just couldn't happen.

Neither of the radical solutions are going to be of any real use, I see the answer as lying somewhere in the middle ground.
 
03USMC said:
Thats the problem with gun control. It punishes the law biding. They can't have guns. The scumbags who didn't obey the law in the first place don't care they still have them.
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i am law abiding.

i live in a country with gun control


i own firearms



????



the only difficulty that i had in gaining the ability to get said firearm, was to prove i wasn't a nutbar, wouldn't accidently shoot myself through not knowing which end did what, and having the facilities to safely store it.


the reason so many of your criminals have guns, is because your whole country has such easy access to them
 
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Infern0 said:
i am law abiding.




the reason so many of you criminals have guns, is because your whole country has such easy access to them
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You Criminals?????


I go to a couple LE related sites that are international in nature. Lot of UK Coppers on one of them. The UK is murder on gun ownership and yet the Cop's are saying that their fire arms related crimes are going up. The criminals are getting acess to illegally imported (smuggled) guns. That in a country that has strict fire arms ownership laws.

My Uncle and Cousin are members of the Mexican Judical Police. Mexico has strict gun ownership laws. And yet they are out gunned by Narco-Traffickers.

Gun control doesn't control the criminal element no matter how strict your laws are. They will have them.
 
How many of these sites are advocating making firearms easier to get for the masses though?

I also think it is wrong to use organisations such as drug cartels as examples of a failing system as they are backed by millions if not billions of dollars and if weapons controls were removed entirely they would be better armed than most armies, your average criminal doesn't quite have the same resources.
 
Judging from the debate so far, I'd say that, gun ownership in the USA will completely self destruct, within the next 20 years. If concealed carry laws are bought in, halve or quarter that time frame from the time of inception.

A few more high school killing sprees or sniper attacks and it could change a whole lot sooner.
 
You know those illegals you see everywhere in the southern states? Yeah, it's that easy to get a weapon into the country. And those giant cargo ships. You really think they check every single part of every single container? Not too many years ago I remember reading about a guy in New York City who had somehow attained a Bundeswehr G36. So, I still think that restricting firearms in the hands of citizens is a bad idea. You may have a few more incidences of firearms being used in crimes of passion, but that's the only downside I can think of. And in those instances, a blade will probably take the place of a bullet.

As for a ban in the States, I consider that highly unlikely. What the banners have openly stated is that they're going to go after scary firearms that have a small niche in the civilian world first, then gradually chip away from there. If they intend to take my surplus ComBloc rifles, they can take them from my cold, dead hands.
 
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