Are Americans any different?

[major liability]

That's an impossibility. Even if they caught everyone by surprise and folks didn't have time to stash their weapons, there are a lot of simple firearms designs that are easy to make in a developed country. Besides, if it gets to the point where they're doing Night of the Long Knives type stuff this country's already over with and not worth fighting for. Maybe worth escaping.

 

[A Can of Man]

The right to bear arms is one of the great things about America. One of the things that sets it apart from many other countries... unlike many other folks, you have full authority to defend yourself up to the use of deadly force.

 

[BritinBritain]

Funny video BritinAfrica. I enjoyed it.

Whats funny about it?

All those murders, rapes, and assaults are not being prevented by big rifles and the like... They're being prevented by .38 specials. Little cricket guns that pack enough punch to keep an attacker at bay.

Whats your idea of a big rifle? 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 4 Bore? Please define what you are talking about when you mention "Big Rifles." How do you know that murders or rapes are not prevented by rifles, how much research have you carried out that supports your claim?

I live on a farm, a rifle is far better for self defence in the event of an invasion on my property. A bolt action Lee Enfield with its 10 round magazine is good, but a semi auto is better. If the criminals are close enough for me to engage with a handgun, they are too damn close. Here in South Africa, criminals dont invade farm property in one or two's, on most invasions there are in excess of 10 persons.

I've been around firearms for over 45 years and I have never seen or heard of a cricket gun. Define what you mean by "pack enough punch." I have known incidents where a 45 ACP or even a 12 bore shotgun hasnt put a criminal down.

How much knowledge do you have regarding internal, external and wound ballistics? From your comments, not a lot.

 

[Rob Henderson]

Whats funny about it?

Whats your idea of a big rifle? 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 4 Bore? Please define what you are talking about when you mention "Big Rifles." How do you know that murders or rapes are not prevented by rifles, how much research have you carried out that supports your claim?

I know murders and rapes aren't prevented by rifles because murders and rapists first nab their victims and take them somewhere to commit the crime. For those that DO occur in the home of the victim, they could be prevented by a rifle, but by and large, criminal attacks occur outside the home. I ask you, how much research have you actually done on it?

I live on a farm, a rifle is far better for self defence in the event of an invasion on my property. A bolt action Lee Enfield with its 10 round magazine is good, but a semi auto is better. If the criminals are close enough for me to engage with a handgun, they are too damn close. Here in South Africa, criminals dont invade farm property in one or two's, on most invasions there are in excess of 10 persons.

I was referring more along the lines of kidnapping (which leads to rape and murder) or robbery. Not property invasion... And it's like you said, a bolt action with a 10 round magazine is fine. And what goes on in South Africa ISN'T what goes on in the rest of the world... Here in the United States, the majority of crimes are property invasion by one or two people... We don't have gangs of 10 invading the farm. Laws are different for different countries with different problems.

I've been around firearms for over 45 years and I have never seen or heard of a cricket gun. Define what you mean by "pack enough punch." I have known incidents where a 45 ACP or even a 12 bore shotgun hasnt put a criminal down.

It was a nick name... I just meant a smaller sized pistol. Ever seen Men In Black? I guess not.......

You say you've known instances where a 12 bore shotgun didn't put a criminal down... Did that criminal happen to be in full riot gear? Short of a bullet proof vest and a helmet, I don't see how that's possible. Unless of course the criminal was 100+ yards away when the shot was fired. Shotguns aren't effective that far away, don'tcha know.

How much knowledge do you have regarding internal, external and wound ballistics? From your comments, not a lot.

Obviously not as much as your all-knowingness, oh great lord and master of all things weapon.

 

[major liability]

If you don't hit something vital it doesn't matter if you're using a .50 Beowulf, that guy can still fight for a few seconds to minutes if he's on adrenaline, PCP, or something like that.

 

[wolfen]

I highly doubt there will ever be a point in which ALL guns are in the hands of the police and military.

thats because your young, and hopeful of the return of the kinder gentler world that we had before 911

 

[Rob Henderson]

You don't think that can happen, wolfen?

 

[wolfen]

Yes I think it could and will if this country keeps going like it is right now, it starts with all law abiding people registering all their weapons, then the govt knows what you have , next the automatic weapons become illegal to own, (doesn't bother me I have no need for a automatic)
next the govt gets scared of the people with guns after they sit down and actually count the number of gun owners in the US.
thats when the mass panic starts, the govt starts with the shotguns, and rifles, then they take all the handguns.
One day all the law abiding people no longer have any guns.
remember the criminals who use guns to commit crimes? Well they didn't bother to register their guns, do the simple math and you will figure out who still has a gun.
ANY country that fears its govt or ANY govt that fears its people is destined to fail.

 

[Rob Henderson]

I meant the whole "world before 9/11" thing... You really don't think there's any way the world can get back to that?


As far as the whole "government takeover" goes... Again, I doubt it. The government isn't that stupid... Politicians aren't that stupid. They wouldn't dare try and take away the guns from the people because the people would boot them out of office.
And the day that power is taken away from us as citizens, THEN we can get scared. When we can no longer who we put into government, then we can raise all hell. We can revolt. But until that day comes, the people have the ultimate authority.

 

[tomtom22]

I highly doubt there will ever be a point in which ALL guns are in the hands of the police and military.

This is rare, but I agree with Rob on that point.

 

[A Can of Man]

The kinder gentler "world" before 9/11 never existed. It was simply an illusion.
The Atlantic and Pacific Oceans as well as Canada usually shield America from the realities of the real world. But on 9/11 it kind of hit home and many couldn't deal with it.
Deal with it. This is life, this is the world.

 

[Rob Henderson]

I'm not going to be a pessimist just because some nut jobs decided to attack America because they're jealous of us... Is it somehow wrong to want a more peaceful world?

 

[BritinBritain]

I know murders and rapes aren't prevented by rifles because murders and rapists first nab their victims and take them somewhere to commit the crime. For those that DO occur in the home of the victim, they could be prevented by a rifle, but by and large, criminal attacks occur outside the home. I ask you, how much research have you actually done on it?

Actually quite a bit, for 20 years thereabouts which is obviously a lot more then you have by your inane posts on a subject that you so obviously know nothing about. By and large criminal attacks outside the home? Not once have you come up with research or evidence that backs your posts. All you come up with is what you “think” to be the case.

I was referring more along the lines of kidnapping (which leads to rape and murder) or robbery. Not property invasion... And it's like you said, a bolt action with a 10 round magazine is fine. And what goes on in South Africa ISN'T what goes on in the rest of the world... Here in the United States, the majority of crimes are property invasion by one or two people... We don't have gangs of 10 invading the farm. Laws are different for different countries with different problems.
It was a nick name... I just meant a smaller sized pistol. Ever seen Men In Black? I guess not.......

As I said, a Lee Enfield with its 10 round mag is good, but a semi auto with a 30 or 35 round mag is better.

You've been watching too many movies. If those weapons used in Men in Black were available, I'd buy one in a heart beat, so would every military and police force in the world. I bet you believe that hiding behind a table in a bar stops a 44-40 lol.

So what would you call a smaller sized pistol? What calibre would you suggest that would put someone down?

You say you've known instances where a 12 bore shotgun didn't put a criminal down... Did that criminal happen to be in full riot gear? Short of a bullet proof vest and a helmet, I don't see how that's possible. Unless of course the criminal was 100+ yards away when the shot was fired. Shotguns aren't effective that far away, don'tcha know.
Obviously not as much as your all-knowingness, oh great lord and master of all things weapon.

You don't see how its possible where a 12 bore shotgun wont put a person down? A close friend of mine was an armed cop in London, who was called to an incident in the middle of London where a druggie armed with an axe who was high on PCP. It took 3 rounds from my buddies 12 bore before he went down, all shots were taken at less then 15 yards. There is no such thing as a 100% guaranteed 1 shot kill firearm 100% of the time.

A 12 bore isn't effective out to 100 yards? I tell you what, you stand at that distance and I'll take one shot at you with a slug from my pump gun. I would suggest however, that you take out life insurance to cover your funeral expenses. Again its obvious you know absolutely nothing about the subject.

Lord and Master of all things weapon? LOL Nope, I have very little knowledge on the heavies such as 105's, 155's, even huge naval guns, swords., crossbows, longbows or even nuclear weapons and such like. Although I may have some knowledge regarding small arms, there are obviously others who have a lot more experience and knowledge then I, but you ain't one of them.

 

[A Can of Man]

I'm not going to be a pessimist just because some nut jobs decided to attack America because they're jealous of us... Is it somehow wrong to want a more peaceful world?

It's like wishing that all the hot women in the world would take turns getting into bed with you.
It's not going to happen and quite frankly even thinking about it is a total waste of time.

 

[Rob Henderson]

Actually quite a bit, for 20 years thereabouts which is obviously a lot more then you have by your inane posts on a subject that you so obviously know nothing about. By and large criminal attacks outside the home? Not once have you come up with research or evidence that backs your posts. All you come up with is what you “think” to be the case.

Yet you show me nothing to prove me wrong... Show me, and I'll revise my position. Quote another review from John Locke's book, and I'll consider you unable to prove me wrong.

You've been watching too many movies. If those weapons used in Men in Black were available, I'd buy one in a heart beat, so would every military and police force in the world. I bet you believe that hiding behind a table in a bar stops a 44-40 lol.

Again, it was only a joke... I don't believe the weapons made in MIB are available. I'm not stupid. I was only saying that just because you don't have the biggest gun that weighs 3 times as much as you do, doesn't mean you can't kill someone with it.
The former weapon is commonly referred to as OVERKILL.

So what would you call a smaller sized pistol? What calibre would you suggest that would put someone down?

Again, a .38 special or a 9mm... As long as you're trained on it decently.

You don't see how its possible where a 12 bore shotgun wont put a person down? A close friend of mine was an armed cop in London, who was called to an incident in the middle of London where a druggie armed with an axe who was high on PCP. It took 3 rounds from my buddies 12 bore before he went down, all shots were taken at less then 15 yards. There is no such thing as a 100% guaranteed 1 shot kill firearm 100% of the time.

Ah. Okay. High on PCP... Different story. You should have been more specific.

A 12 bore isn't effective out to 100 yards? I tell you what, you stand at that distance and I'll take one shot at you with a slug from my pump gun. I would suggest however, that you take out life insurance to cover your funeral expenses. Again its obvious you know absolutely nothing about the subject.

If you're using a slug! I was referring to shell effectiveness.

Lord and Master of all things weapon? LOL Nope, I have very little knowledge on the heavies such as 105's, 155's, even huge naval guns, swords., crossbows, longbows or even nuclear weapons and such like. Although I may have some knowledge regarding small arms, there are obviously others who have a lot more experience and knowledge then I, but you ain't one of them.

And I never claimed to be... You're the one saying you have oh so much knowledge on the subject... Well, show me... Give me a source for your claims.

It's like wishing that all the hot women in the world would take turns getting into bed with you.
It's not going to happen and quite frankly even thinking about it is a total waste of time.

Hardly... Men CAN make this place better for everyone. Just because you don't think it will, doesn't mean it won't.

 

[BritinBritain]

Yet you show me nothing to prove me wrong... Show me, and I'll revise my position. Quote another review from John Locke's book, and I'll consider you unable to prove me wrong.

I've proven you wrong time and time again, yet you persist with your inane comments.

You've got it wrong again, its John Lott (Lima Oscar Tango Tango). I have given you a crap load of evidence which you choose to ignore, and not just John Lott. I don't give a toss if you change your position or not, your opinion means nothing to me as you dont have an informed opinion.

Again, it was only a joke... I don't believe the weapons made in MIB are available. I'm not stupid. I was only saying that just because you don't have the biggest gun that weighs 3 times as much as you do, doesn't mean you can't kill someone with it.
The former weapon is commonly referred to as OVERKILL.

I'm surprised that you admitted that you believe that the weapons shown in the movie Men in Black are not available. Commonly referred to as OVERKILL? By whom? You? Like that carries any weight. A gun thats 3 times my weight, another stupid comment. Your not stupid? If your not as stupid as you claim, why make so many stupid suggestions and or comments?

Again, a .38 special or a 9mm... As long as you're trained on it decently.

A 38 Special in not to be sniffed at, what 9mm are you talking about? 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Short (often referred to as a 380), 9mm Makarov? What about the 40S&W Glock 27 or the Glock 45 ACP 30 or 36?

What do you class as “trained decently” by what yard stick do you consider to be “trained decently” and by whom?

Ah. Okay. High on PCP... Different story. You should have been more specific.

You made a statement that you didn't see that it was not possible for a 12 bore not to put a person down. I gave you a real life scenario which proved you wrong. Perhaps the police officers on the forum can give even more incidents of this nature

If you're using a slug! I was referring to shell effectiveness.

A slug is only one of the 12 bore ammunition selections available, which shoots down your statement that a 12 bore isn't effective out to 100 yards.

And I never claimed to be... You're the one saying you have oh so much knowledge on the subject... Well, show me... Give me a source for your claims.

You are claiming that you have all the answers, when in fact you have none. You spout on and on about a subject that you clearly know nothing about, you never give any evidence to support your thumb sucked claims and idea's. Show you what? Source for what claims?

I didn't claim I have so much knowledge on any subject, as I said, I have some knowledge regarding small arms, enough knowledge to be in the gun trade for over 20 years including building rifles as well as repairing various handguns, rifles and shotguns. What knowledge do you have? Your so called knowledge comes from Hollywood's creations, computer games or playing with GI Joe. As I stated previously, there are those with far more knowledge and experience then I.

 

[A Can of Man]

Hardly... Men CAN make this place better for everyone. Just because you don't think it will, doesn't mean it won't.

Wake up seriously.
You have Gurkhas who served so well for the British for hundreds of years... if you count the British East India Company, since 1817. Yet they're not given the rights to enter and stay in the UK compared with some guy from Pakistan who clearly hates the UK and is under suspicion that he may have fought against British troops in Afghanistan.
All these financial institutions... all that greed. The government finally gives them money to un-f*ck the mess they created and they're using GOVERNMENT money (tax payer money) to pay off their layoffs and even finance their own vacations.
You have legal immigration restricted because illegal immigration is a problem and not enough is being done to restrict illegal immigration. Just happens to be that targeting people who might actually be of benefit to America is a lot easier.
An actress in South Korea committed suicide because she was used as a prostitute by her manager (and of course the chain of responsibility goes higher but largely it's been well covered up). The police are then sent on a raid against prostitution. Yes, the entertainment industry can force the police to pretend to take action without actually taking action against those really responsible. It's not the first case that something like this happened. It's happened MANY times now.
People smuggle drugs across borders by stuffing drugs into freshly dead babies.
Genocide.
....
the list is endless.
People don't change. At least, not very much. We always try to kid ourselves into thinking that we're different from our ancestors. We are in a way, but if you look at it overall, we're very much the same.
Ask a guy who's got his limbs blown off in a war and got abandoned by the military, the government and his own family if he believes in the decency of mankind.
Or the girl who got tricked into going into a prostitution ring by a woman at her church who told her that she was going to help her find work overseas.
Or the guy or woman with a family to feed who's been waiting in line for days at an aid distribution center who can't get aid because gangs/militia are hogging the front of the line and taking everything.

Wake the f*ck up Henderson.
People can't make the world a better place.
Not even Jesus managed to do that.
It's not because we're stupid. It's because we're greedy, selfish, jealous, prideful... it's because we are evil, because we are weak.

I put this on my blog as well.

 

[Rob Henderson]

I've proven you wrong time and time again, yet you persist with your inane comments.

You've got it wrong again, its John Lott (Lima Oscar Tango Tango). I have given you a crap load of evidence which you choose to ignore, and not just John Lott. I don't give a toss if you change your position or not, your opinion means nothing to me as you dont have an informed opinion.

You've given me no facts... I haven't seen any links to anything factual in your posts. I see a bunch of biased information. I can find statistics just the same as you can that prove YOU completely wrong... In fact, I HAVE posted links to factual information. You only think you've proven me wrong because, like most conservatives and pro-gun advocates, you only see what you want to see.

I'm surprised that you admitted that you believe that the weapons shown in the movie Men in Black are not available. Commonly referred to as OVERKILL? By whom? You? Like that carries any weight. A gun thats 3 times my weight, another stupid comment. Your not stupid? If your not as stupid as you claim, why make so many stupid suggestions and or comments?

Stick to the f*cking topic. I'm tired of your talking down on me because YOU can't come up with enough of a debate to compete with me. Talk to me and debate with me, or ignore me, because I will not be called stupid.

A 38 Special in not to be sniffed at, what 9mm are you talking about? 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Short (often referred to as a 380), 9mm Makarov? What about the 40S&W Glock 27 or the Glock 45 ACP 30 or 36?

I wasn't sniffing at it. I was saying it quite capable of disabling an attacker! That's the point! You don't need a 12 bore shotgun walking around the streets of Manhattan to protect yourself from some punk trying to mug you!
As for your splitting hairs on gun types... I can't say anything.

What do you class as “trained decently” by what yard stick do you consider to be “trained decently” and by whom?

I consider taking weapons safety courses, regularly training with your firearm, educating yourself about it, and maintaining that education to be sufficiently trained. Taking one course to get the license and never going back is NOT "trained" with a firearm.

You made a statement that you didn't see that it was not possible for a 12 bore not to put a person down. I gave you a real life scenario which proved you wrong. Perhaps the police officers on the forum can give even more incidents of this nature

And you never eluded to the fact that the criminal was high on a drug known to lessen the effects of physical damage.

A slug is only one of the 12 bore ammunition selections available, which shoots down your statement that a 12 bore isn't effective out to 100 yards.

A slug makes any shotgun much more effective, provided you can actually control it enough to put it where you want it to... Now, take that same principal and apply it to a shell full of shot, and your chances of hitting something 100 yards away decrease, significantly.

You are claiming that you have all the answers, when in fact you have none. You spout on and on about a subject that you clearly know nothing about, you never give any evidence to support your thumb sucked claims and idea's. Show you what? Source for what claims?

I've claimed nothing of the sort... Show me the post where I said ANYTHING of that nature. Show me the source that proves me wrong, because again, all I've read is reviews of a book that say nothing factual about the contents of the book.

I didn't claim I have so much knowledge on any subject, as I said, I have some knowledge regarding small arms, enough knowledge to be in the gun trade for over 20 years including building rifles as well as repairing various handguns, rifles and shotguns. What knowledge do you have? Your so called knowledge comes from Hollywood's creations, computer games or playing with GI Joe. As I stated previously, there are those with far more knowledge and experience then I.

Hardly... My knowledge comes from educating myself on the issues of the day. Interestingly enough, God complexes are one subject that fascinates me ENDLESSLY.



Redneck.... I'm not going to debate this any further, because it's off the topic, and it's a matter of opinion... You can show me random acts of violence, and I can show you random acts of kindness. The bottom line is we have fundamentally different views... Pessimism vs. optimism...

 

[wolfen]

I never meant to sound like ALL the guns will only be had bu the military and police, the criminals that us them will still have them, and still use them, the people that abide by the gun laws are the ones that won't have any guns.

And Rob if we do return to a pre911 world and lifestyle, its gonna be a long time, you might be around to see it but I doubt if I will live that long.

 

[BritinBritain]

You've given me no facts... I haven't seen any links to anything factual in your posts. I see a bunch of biased information. I can find statistics just the same as you can that prove YOU completely wrong... In fact, I HAVE posted links to factual information. You only think you've proven me wrong because, like most conservatives and pro-gun advocates, you only see what you want to see..

Biased information? by who's opinion? yours? That doesn't carry any weight whatsoever. I've given you plenty of proof and facts yet you ignore it. Why would I waste my time giving you more and more facts when you ignore them?

Now I'm a conservative lol, but yes I AM a pro gun advocate. At least you got that bit right. Only see what I want to see? I see plenty of evidence just about every day. You should try talking to rape and attack victims or talk to the families of murder victims like I have. Not that it concerns you, two weeks ago I was a state witness regarding a double murder. I wont go into the facts of the case as its still ongoing. However, what I can say is, a beautiful young girl of 18 years was murdered along with her boyfriend in cold blood. Both victims were unarmed and defenceless.

Stick to the f*cking topic. I'm tired of your talking down on me because YOU can't come up with enough of a debate to compete with me. Talk to me and debate with me, or ignore me, because I will not be called stupid. .

TUT TUT, watch the language, ladies and children read this forum.

I'll debate with anyone with an ounce of knowledge on the subject, you haven't. As for talking down to you, I don't give a toss what your tired of. Compete with you? lol why would I even want to compete with anyone who is as blinkered, conceited and arrogant as you are. lol You wont be called stupid? Then stop making stupid statements on a subject that you don't have a clue about.

I wasn't sniffing at it. I was saying it quite capable of disabling an attacker! That's the point! You don't need a 12 bore shotgun walking around the streets of Manhattan to protect yourself from some punk trying to mug you!
As for your splitting hairs on gun types... I can't say anything..

I didn't say you was sniffing at the 38 Special, I was adding a comment that a 38 Special is not to be sniffed at, yet once again a 38 Special is not going to put anyone down with one round if they are high on drugs. I've known criminals hit with multi rounds of 357 magnum who haven't gone down.

I wouldn't know what I'd need walking around the streets of Manhattan, I've never been there.

Punk? You've been watching too many Dirty Harry movies.

Neither do I split hairs regarding firearm types, makes and caliber's, I was giving you some examples, which was obviously a waste of my time and energy.

I consider taking weapons safety courses, regularly training with your firearm, educating yourself about it, and maintaining that education to be sufficiently trained. Taking one course to get the license and never going back is NOT "trained" with a firearm..

Gasp, a bit of sense at last. I bet it wont last

And you never eluded to the fact that the criminal was high on a drug known to lessen the effects of physical damage..

You made a statement, and as I said, I proved you wrong.

A slug makes any shotgun much more effective, provided you can actually control it enough to put it where you want it to... Now, take that same principal and apply it to a shell full of shot, and your chances of hitting something 100 yards away decrease, significantly. .

Again, I proved you wrong, now your trying to claw back some credibility.

I've claimed nothing of the sort... Show me the post where I said ANYTHING of that nature. Show me the source that proves me wrong, because again, all I've read is reviews of a book that say nothing factual about the contents of the book.
Hardly... My knowledge comes from educating myself on the issues of the day. Interestingly enough, God complexes are one subject that fascinates me ENDLESSLY.

I was right, the common sense didn't last.

You are forever spouting your all knowing idea's and opinions, yet when it comes down to it, you know bugger all about the subject. if you want to know about the book I mentioned, then get a copy and read it. You wont read it, because your too lazy, too cocky and big headed and have made your own mind up about the book being biased DESPITE the fact you've never read it.

Educating yourself? And where do you get this all consuming knowledge? If you like educating yourself as you say you do, get a copy of John Lotts book and study it CAREFULLY.

lol where did God come into it? lol

I REALLY suggest that you stick to watching cartoons, action movies, playing computer games and playing with GI Joe, because you don't have a clue about the real world. When you get a lot more life experience, then come back and talk to me.