America Lucky or Blessed?
Naddoður
Active member
If God's will is absolute, then the world is deterministic and we cannot have free will. On the other hand, if we do have free will, then what's the point of there being a God?
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
You have to realise though that God does not promote free will as you are only free to believe in him or not you can not believe in anything else, for example I draw your attention to number 1 of the fabled list...
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
Further to this the guy should he exist is clearly a megalomaniac as the first 4 commandments are cementing power with killing each other only rating a 6 on the list.
To be blunt I think most people these days no longer believe in "god" as a being but more as a collective term for the unexplained mechanisms of the universe and as such it is unlikely that America is blessed and more likely that is simply makes its own luck which isn't difficult if you have a giant piece of dirt with tons of raw materials and non-aggressive neighbours.
PS As you can tell I am pretty much an atheist.
Aleksander
New Member
Well... I see that now it is more "God exists" vs "God does not exists" topic, than it should be :sarc:. For me all of your examples are just pointless. IF God exists ( I believe so, but this is not important now ) than how we can even try to understand what He wants, or what He is trying to do? How an ant can understand what we ( humans ) are doing, and why?
BACK to our topic: I think that every country has such battles and moments in its history ;-). I'am from Poland, and from our side I can tell You, that there are plenty of them. Maybe main achievement was regaining indepencence after 123 years of occupation and not loosing our cultural identity.
Sorry for my bad english. I hope, that you can understand what I am trying to say.
Ave
BACK to our topic: I think that every country has such battles and moments in its history ;-). I'am from Poland, and from our side I can tell You, that there are plenty of them. Maybe main achievement was regaining indepencence after 123 years of occupation and not loosing our cultural identity.
Sorry for my bad english. I hope, that you can understand what I am trying to say.
Ave
AZ_Infantry
Active member
Boy, y'all have an answer to everything. Here it is:
"You can't prove what you're saying, so it's garbage. I can't prove what I'm saying, but it is hard core, 100% fact that you're a nutcase religious fanatic without a brain if you don't accept that my lack of proof is better than your lack of proof..."
Yeah. Your argument is just that compelling.
:bored:
"You can't prove what you're saying, so it's garbage. I can't prove what I'm saying, but it is hard core, 100% fact that you're a nutcase religious fanatic without a brain if you don't accept that my lack of proof is better than your lack of proof..."
Yeah. Your argument is just that compelling.
:bored:
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
But the existence of god is paramount to answering the question asked, you can not be "blessed" if god does not exist therefore any atheists and agnostics responding can not be true to their beliefs and answer "blessed" leaving the only viable option as "Lucky".
Kind of reminds me of the old joke:
If we are all Gods children what is so special about Jesus?"
How can you claim it is in perfect unity when Genesis has two contradictory accounts of the Earths creation?
Problem 1:
===============================================================================================
Genesis 1:25-27
(Humans were created after the other animals.)
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.
Genesis 2:18-19
(Humans were created before the other animals.)
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
=================================================================================================
Problem 2:
Genesis 1:27
(The first man and woman were created simultaneously.)
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:18-22
(The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.)
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
==================================================================================================
Genesis so badly written and riddled with inconsistencies that it alone should be enough to put a logical mind off the God idea.
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MontyB, your logic is somehow flawed.
You dont need a god to be blessed. When we say "god bless you". It means also "we bless you in the name of god".
If you see carefully this blessing comes from a man who by a declarative sentence gives a blessing in the name of an entity's principles.
If god dont exist, it will be the principles of those who believe in him alone. And if god exist, it will be his principles and the principles of it's followers.
To put things into a short term.
God exists if there is people who believe it. It's not the truth. But it's a reality.
Go say that god dont exist on this forum. And god wont strike you with a lightning bolt to punish you.
But go say that in Afghanistan in a Taliban assembly. And you will see god's wrath.
These religious beliefs can be strong enough to make these concepts a reality. The concept of god is a powerful reality.
If 50.000.000 Americans believe that America is blessed. Then America is blessed by 50millions Americans.
Isnt that godly enough?
You dont need a god to be blessed. When we say "god bless you". It means also "we bless you in the name of god".
If you see carefully this blessing comes from a man who by a declarative sentence gives a blessing in the name of an entity's principles.
If god dont exist, it will be the principles of those who believe in him alone. And if god exist, it will be his principles and the principles of it's followers.
To put things into a short term.
God exists if there is people who believe it. It's not the truth. But it's a reality.
Go say that god dont exist on this forum. And god wont strike you with a lightning bolt to punish you.
But go say that in Afghanistan in a Taliban assembly. And you will see god's wrath.
These religious beliefs can be strong enough to make these concepts a reality. The concept of god is a powerful reality.
If 50.000.000 Americans believe that America is blessed. Then America is blessed by 50millions Americans.
Isnt that godly enough?
Naddoður
Active member
You have to realise though that God does not promote free will as you are only free to believe in him or not you can not believe in anything else, for example I draw your attention to number 1 of the fabled list...
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
Further to this the guy should he exist is clearly a megalomaniac as the first 4 commandments are cementing power with killing each other only rating a 6 on the list.
To be blunt I think most people these days no longer believe in "god" as a being but more as a collective term for the unexplained mechanisms of the universe and as such it is unlikely that America is blessed and more likely that is simply makes its own luck which isn't difficult if you have a giant piece of dirt with tons of raw materials and non-aggressive neighbours.
PS As you can tell I am pretty much an atheist.
Well Monty; you don’t have to convince me. I've been an atheist for many years.
But the answer to the joke “If we are all Gods children what is so special about Jesus?" is very easy.
He is his begotten son, we are his created children.
But for all that I care; people can believe in whatever they like.
Naddoður
Active member
Classical Newtonian mechanics assumes no randomness- everything is controlled by simple equations of motion, and that's the end of the story. However, in modern physics we have a key concept called the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which states that you can never truly measure both an object's position and momentum with total accuracy. Hence it's impossible to predict with total accuracy how one particle will affect another. This effect is most pronounced for objects at the atomic level, but the effect on the real world is profound. The way that molecules in a gas interact, for example, can only be modeled as random.
Think about this experiment that shows how randomness is present in every day life - suppose you line up 10 billiard balls, with each ball separated 1 meter from the next. Using a cue ball, is it possible to hit the first ball into the second, so that the second hits the third, the third hits the fourth, and so on for all ten balls? It sounds simple enough - just a very good combination shot. But if you do the math you'll see that any error in the way two balls collide is magnified by about a factor of 30 when the next ball is hit. So for ten balls any initial error is magnified by 30^10, which is about 6 x 10^15. Stated another way, the initial hit would have to be accurate to better than 5x10^-15 cm. To achieve this level of accuracy the balls would need to be smoother than atomic structure allows. At this level the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle sets in. So it's impossible to predict exactly what will happen to the 10 bals - the end result is random.
Now think just how much more incredibly complicated the universe is compared to just 10 billiard balls, and you can see that randomness is indeed fundamental to how things behave.
senojekips
Active member
Pure semantics, If you invoke the name of god, you must believe that there is a god. A person with no belief in god is not going to invoke a blessing in his name, they would merely say "Bless You".
You've missed your calling, you should have been a con man. You try to justify what you say by completely avoiding the meaning and introducing your own interpretation of what is meant
No!... you will see the wrath of man. Ignorant, uneducated, misguided MAN. (A believer in god)
Drivel,.. pure and unadulterated drivel. The belief of a gambling addict that gambling will make him rich will not make it a reality, even if he did perchance become rich as a result of gambling, it would not have been his belief that made it happen. You are talking no more than pseudo religious gobbledegook that is as ridiculous as the beliefs you are espousing
It's about as stupid a statement as I've ever heard. The whole point being that nothing is "godly", as there is no such thing.
Well, I dont want to defend a position against all odds.
It's just that we cant ignore religion as it's a powerful source of motivation for mankind.
And you are right, it's purely semantics.
But I was reading a book about history in African countries. And there was a Muslim king who decided to destroy some pagan idols (note: Muslim like Jews think that idolatry is a very dangerous sin).
But the problem is that the pagan who were living in his kingdom believed that these idols protect the king.
So once these idols were destroyed... They attacked the king believing that he wasnt protected anymore. And they defeated him.
Can you pull something out of this story and apply it to America?
Wrath of a believer or wrath of god? Where is the difference? In the end, you are victim of a wrath because you refused to believe.
A religious man will call it the wrath of god while an atheist/agnostic would call it wrath of a believer.
These are only semantics in my opinion. What I said before have a part of semantics, but in the end, it's logic.
And god may exist by the way. I'm myself an agnostic. I can believe and disbelieve at the same time. I just dont have to make up my mind.
It's just that we cant ignore religion as it's a powerful source of motivation for mankind.
And you are right, it's purely semantics.
But I was reading a book about history in African countries. And there was a Muslim king who decided to destroy some pagan idols (note: Muslim like Jews think that idolatry is a very dangerous sin).
But the problem is that the pagan who were living in his kingdom believed that these idols protect the king.
So once these idols were destroyed... They attacked the king believing that he wasnt protected anymore. And they defeated him.
Can you pull something out of this story and apply it to America?
Wrath of a believer or wrath of god? Where is the difference? In the end, you are victim of a wrath because you refused to believe.
A religious man will call it the wrath of god while an atheist/agnostic would call it wrath of a believer.
These are only semantics in my opinion. What I said before have a part of semantics, but in the end, it's logic.
And god may exist by the way. I'm myself an agnostic. I can believe and disbelieve at the same time. I just dont have to make up my mind.
AZ_Infantry
Active member
And life and evolution and this habitable planet and all the universes came about with these vast, vast numbers affecting them?
Do you see how illogical it is to assume that life--emotions, beliefs, principles, in the case of humans--could have possibly chanced into existence? And worked properly?
The numbers would be so amazingly absurd that I don't think there's a computer on the planet that could calculate what went into make us this one life form.
But don't get me wrong, here. Listen to me, please.
I too believe in randomness, science, and evolution. I am no 6,000-year Adventist that believes God put dinosaur bones in rocks to trick us. I have no problem accepting the Bing Bang Theory, the curvature of space that points to different dimensions, or that mankind exists not necessarily to fill a role, but maybe just to exist. Life on other planets? I'd be pretty arrogant to assume I knew there couldn't be with all the vastness of the... how many universes have we counted now? Millions the last time I checked.
And no, Seno, I do not excuse or purport the greatness of my morals on a soapbox proclaiming God.
But with all those things that I can believe in, I can also believe that, somewhere out there, there is a being, a Diety, who fostered evolution so we could grow. Who gave us the right to be "good" or "bad" people.
I don't think heaven and hell are literal places. I think churches are a farce, a business entity used to corrupt what is supposed to be the ultimate good. I don't believe in a "man in the sky" watching our every move and judging us. And along those same lines, I do not believe that God--my God--dangles carrots in front of people to convince them to live a certain way or do certain things anymore than He punishes for not doing certain things.
The only contentious concept I am struggling with y'all is that I believe that God COULD do all these things - if He wanted.
To you, because He doesn't, He isn't there.
And once yet again, I respect your every right to believe or not to believe. I live my life free from judging others except in social-normal occurrences (raping is bad, helping orphans is good). I AM NOT A BIBLE THUMPER STANDING IN LINE TO POP YOU ON THE HEAD WITH IT. Believe as you will.
I look at it this way: if I am wrong, then when I'll die I'll not know I was ever wrong. I haven't lived my life denying myself anything because of my faith in God than I would have otherwise had. I'm a good person, with a good heart, and that is how I enjoy my leisure time: helping others. If there is no God, then my life will not have been wasted (except arguing on silly Internet boards, LOL!)
If you are the one who is wrong, on the other and...
Well, some want to convert you. Some even want to kill you for your lack of belief.
I just want to sit down and have a cold beer with you over a friendly conversation where both of our minds are open to possibly accepting that because we do not and cannot know it all, there may be points brought up worth our honest consideration.
When I sit and contemplate God, I cannot help but feel that atheist and believer alike probably have most of it wrong. I mean, if God really DID create all these things into existence (and I fully believe He did), then who are we to assume that a short, simple book can possibly define His attributes to us? A book flawed with the perceptions and language barriers of human authors?
But I cannot believe that there is no God. All these seeming coincidences are too far fetched for me to make an educated decision that life sprung in all of its forms because two rocks collided. That the rules of life and our emotions are just pat of that randomness.
I believe with all of my soul that Jesus Christ is our sacrifice to enjoy God's company in a place we refer to as "heaven." I believe in the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. I believe that God loves me, that He wants me to make the right choices.
What's more, I think that my God wants me to SHOW people my beliefs, not force it down their throat in some amniotic state of strangled and stagnant lecture of righteousness.
My God is the One that loves compassion, innocence, and righteous living. But He is not a god to enforce such.
Anyway, I felt that I should elaborate. If we're going to talk, it's important that you don't view me as the typical Christian. Because I'm not. I'm sorry it came out so long, but I sincerely hope you read it and are a little moe willing to share ideas with me, rather than explaining to me how all my ideas are just dead wrong.
:drunkb:
rattler
Active member
Wow, the best post I have read in a long time here!
Right on the spot, separating atheism from the I-do-not-know-what-it-is-called-but-it-is-all-about-god thingy that makes us cringe, I like the attitude (even id I find ut atheistic in its condensed meaning).
No blessing here, no damnation neither.
Just a species (humans) that have the ability to develop fright from evluating possible outcomes and recting to it with ideologies tht try to explain the source of their frights.
Right on the spot, separating atheism from the I-do-not-know-what-it-is-called-but-it-is-all-about-god thingy that makes us cringe, I like the attitude (even id I find ut atheistic in its condensed meaning).
No blessing here, no damnation neither.
Just a species (humans) that have the ability to develop fright from evluating possible outcomes and recting to it with ideologies tht try to explain the source of their frights.
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rattler
Active member
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Which brings me to fun fact number 2:
Star Trek uses the Heisenberg Compensator to get around the uncertainty problem involved with teleportation.
senojekips
Active member
The wrong word altogether, it is quite logical, in fact the logic would far and away support chance over there being some man in the sky who just decided in a moment of boredom to make a universe for his entertainment. Which again raises the question, if he made everything, who made him? Now that starts to become far more illogical than any lonnnngg chance.
AZ_Infantry
Active member
Why is it more illogical for a God to not have to have been created then it is for a universe to not have to have been created?
If the universe made everything, what made the universe?
Just asking the same question in a different perspective...
Good question Infantry.
If I had to make an quick answer right now. I would say that WE live in the universe. We are in a same "dimension" where "start" and "end" have a meaning.
While god is in another level... dimension... universe... I dont know if we can name it at all.
I dont know much about the religions, but I studied the Muslims' beliefs. And they say that god is something completely "different". And I like this idea.
You cant name it or explain it. It's like asking an ant to speak about human politics or quantum physics. It's way beyond our reach/grasp.
The real answer is that we cant understand god. Even if we wanted.
The highest level of understanding we can reach is the level where we can start to understand how ignorant we are. Do you understand that? We are just smart enough to understand that we are ignorant on these things...
So the universe is supposed to have a beginning and an end. To have a creator. While god is outside time and space. He is everywhere and at anytime. This is why we say that god can know the future and that he can see everything...
So let me explain why I was talking about the Muslim faith. The Muslims think that it's forbidden to use "human concept" when speaking about god.
Calling god the father is a sin. Because he isnt a father.
He doesnt need a mother/creator/educator. He isnt human. He is completely alien to us. We cant find words to speak about him without sinning. Because it would be lies.
I like this idea very much.
If I had to make an quick answer right now. I would say that WE live in the universe. We are in a same "dimension" where "start" and "end" have a meaning.
While god is in another level... dimension... universe... I dont know if we can name it at all.
I dont know much about the religions, but I studied the Muslims' beliefs. And they say that god is something completely "different". And I like this idea.
You cant name it or explain it. It's like asking an ant to speak about human politics or quantum physics. It's way beyond our reach/grasp.
The real answer is that we cant understand god. Even if we wanted.
The highest level of understanding we can reach is the level where we can start to understand how ignorant we are. Do you understand that? We are just smart enough to understand that we are ignorant on these things...
So the universe is supposed to have a beginning and an end. To have a creator. While god is outside time and space. He is everywhere and at anytime. This is why we say that god can know the future and that he can see everything...
So let me explain why I was talking about the Muslim faith. The Muslims think that it's forbidden to use "human concept" when speaking about god.
Calling god the father is a sin. Because he isnt a father.
He doesnt need a mother/creator/educator. He isnt human. He is completely alien to us. We cant find words to speak about him without sinning. Because it would be lies.
I like this idea very much.
Naddoður
Active member
Which brings me to fun fact number 2:
Star Trek uses the Heisenberg Compensator to get around the uncertainty problem involved with teleportation.
So the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is science fiction?