Allow Iran To Have WMD.?
Ollie Garchy
Active member
Chief Bones said:
Actually Chief, most of my information comes from CSIS and other US conservative think tanks. Take a look at the work of Anthony Cordesman, for example. You will find that what I write is based heavily on their observations and mixed with some of my own ideas. My exposure to the actual Iranian position is extremely limited. Nor do I care about their national aspirations, hopes, dreams, or whatever. I only want the creation of a functioning world system. Why? So that the world can start addressing real problems like environmental collapse or conquering death.
It is easy to believe that politicians will act in a particular manner. The problem rests in trying to determine a complex and real policy from one or two statements. Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called for Israel to be "wiped off the map". He did not specify how he would accomplish this goal. Nor did he tell us how he would avoid retaliation by either Israel or the UN. Nor did he tell us why he made this statement. Basic logic tells us that he is only trying to solidify support at home. Iran is not up to the task of destroying Israel conventionally or by other means. What Ahmadinejad plans is in any case unimportant because his geopolitical power is far too limited.
The US should be concentrating on building a better international system that (1) anchors American dominance without alienating the globe and (2) deals with "rogue" states or non-state actors by undermining their dominant ideologies. What does this mean? Simple. The US has to convince other states that it is not a threat. You do this by making partnerships in a team environment. You don't make friends by beating those who disagree or who want better conditions with a stick. You barter.
Here are a few points taken out of a speech by Zbigniew Brzezinski (1994):
1. Difference of opinion is ok: "We cannot cope with these problems if we preach, in a sense, a Manichean version of global relationships. You are all familiar with the phrase, “If you’re not with us, you’re against us.” You all know who has been uttering that phrase so often in the course of the last year and a half though I suspect he doesn’t know where it originates. It was Lenin, [laughter] who originated it in order to justify the repression of the Mensheviks".
2. We have to recognize Islam: "We cannot cope with these dilemmas if our foreign policy is made largely on the basis of rather extremist perspectives, panic mongering, and simple labels. And certainly, we’ll not be able to cope with it if we slide into a self-fulfilling hostility with a huge religion that is one of the key religions of mankind".
3. We need a better US: "Because the isolation of the United States, the loss of credibility of the United States, will produce countervailing forces which will not replace us as the new source of stability, which will not create a new global superpower, but will push us collectively into growing and increasingly significant global chaos. And that is to me the central threat that would arise out of the failure of the United States to exercise effective leadership".
http://www.iop.harvard.edu/pdfs/transcripts/brzezinski_03.18.04.pdf
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
OG
I don't completely disagree with everything you have posted.
Having said that, the [messiah (Mahdi) - he has called himself the 'chosen one'], Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map" raises some very very very real worries that he means EXACTLY what he has said.
If this is the action and the words of a completely rational and sane individual, then we have a major problem in trying to arrive at a mutually acceptable point of reference. This croaker would for sure use a nuclear weapon if he could lay his hands on one. Every single word, every single speech, every single action he has taken since taking his office has screamed "RELIGIOUS ZEALOT" "JEW HATER" "ANIHILATOR".
This is the person that part of the world wants to let have a nuclear weapon with the power to make the decision to use it ...
YEAH RIGHT! This is NOT very sane either.
I don't completely disagree with everything you have posted.
Having said that, the [messiah (Mahdi) - he has called himself the 'chosen one'], Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map" raises some very very very real worries that he means EXACTLY what he has said.
If this is the action and the words of a completely rational and sane individual, then we have a major problem in trying to arrive at a mutually acceptable point of reference. This croaker would for sure use a nuclear weapon if he could lay his hands on one. Every single word, every single speech, every single action he has taken since taking his office has screamed "RELIGIOUS ZEALOT" "JEW HATER" "ANIHILATOR".
This is the person that part of the world wants to let have a nuclear weapon with the power to make the decision to use it ...
YEAH RIGHT! This is NOT very sane either.
WarMachine
Active member
Iranians aren't that interested in regional hegemony despite their leader's ambitions. The people want to have diplomatic relations with the US, they don't want to support arab groups like hezbollah on their dime, and they're more concerned about their own economy and welfare than the islamic revolution that the theocrats keep talking about.
I don't know how long ahmendinejad can keep talking about destroying countries iran doesn't even border, but it definitely isn't the reason he was elected. He's a populist and the people figure that populists will help their problems, which is more or less what he's been trying to do domestically. If it weren't for his insane international stances, i think no one would have cared about him and would concentrate solely on khameini.
I don't know how long ahmendinejad can keep talking about destroying countries iran doesn't even border, but it definitely isn't the reason he was elected. He's a populist and the people figure that populists will help their problems, which is more or less what he's been trying to do domestically. If it weren't for his insane international stances, i think no one would have cared about him and would concentrate solely on khameini.
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
WarMachine said:
That 'might' be the case ... but ... as long as he continues to talk insanely, he CAN NOT be allowed to get his hands on nuclear weapons - the danger is just to extreme to take the chance.
Chief Bones said:
Now why would you start world war III because of a little insignificant state in the middle of nowhere, MasterChief?
Don't tell me because of "friendship"...because it seems to me that your pouring a lot more into this friendship than Israel does.
Could it be because of the lobbyists in Washington?
That number of western states would be even less than your "coalition of the willing" nowadays.
Missileer said:
Israel is an ally of America because that is just what suits them in this particular time....
My comment from the previous post that you give into this friendship a lot more than you receive still stands.
Heck, you fill their defense budget.
from another thread & from another poster
"In the past 50 years Isreal has sold secret military and non military technology to hostile countries like China, it has but caught or has been implicated in at least 3 different spy rings within the US, and it has shown a willingness to stab friends in the back when it suited their interests. (I refer to the infamous case of the USS Liberty) which I refuse to believe was an accident. It also has a tendency to be a haven for criminals from both the US and Eastern Europe. Sometimes this is done without the Governments knowledge, sometimes not. Not to mention that Isreal has a foreign policy with its neighboors that is directly in contradiction to US (and other nations) interests. And all this as $11 Billion in US taxpayer dollars that gets sent to them annually. My question is what exactly do we (Americans) get out of this 'alliance'? Should we defend Isreal? It depends on the situation. But I dont think the US shouldn't be Isreal's b**** either. So far it seems like a very one sided relationship."
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fingolfin361
Active member
rOk said:
They get a foothold in the Middle East, via a nation (not just a ruler) who loves/is indebted to them.
Also, it keeps the various Jewish and Christian lobbyists (like the Cornerstone Church members etc. dunno what the umbrella term for the coalition is) that control so much influence in Washington feeling like they have done their Holy duty.
The most plobrem is,Iranian reformers were suppressed terribly from conservatist in recent years.
Their representative isn't in the political world at all in now.
For a example,
Their representative isn't in the political world at all in now.
For a example,
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7312Iran: Students hold rally in Tehran UniversityTue. 23 May 2006Iran Focus
London, May 23 – Hundreds of university students rallied on campus at the University of Tehran on Monday in protest to the increasing police brutality against student’s liberties.
The rally took place at the university’s Technical Faculty, according to a statement received from a student group that took part in the protests. Security forces were rushed to the scene to quell the unrest.
The demonstrators highlighted the recent case of a Kurdish student from the university’s social sciences faculty whose fingers had been broken with a metal baton by members of the herasat, or security agents, for distributing student papers on campus.
They also protested against the systematic crackdown on mixed-sex gatherings outside the university’s main entrance as well as university officials’ “incompetence”.
“Death to dictatorship”, the students chanted. There were also chants of
“forget about becoming nuclear, think about us” and “we don’t want a fascist university”.
Team Infidel
Forum Spin Doctor
Ok, so who here is the PMOI supporter?
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
What the Sam H is PMOI? Prime Minister Of Iran???????Team Infidel said:
Team Infidel
Forum Spin Doctor
Chief Bones said:
Peoples Mujahaden of Iran.... A terrorist organization. Check them out on wikipedia
fingolfin361
Active member
Hmmm whatever sympathy i might have for Marxian principles is always destroyed by the violent ideology/methods advocated by sooo many Marxist factions around the globe.
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
Thank you - I thought I had missed something and in a way I did. I knew that the Mujaheddin were terrorists, but I didn't recognize the PMOI designator.Team Infidel said:
The real problem the world is facing is the proliferation of terrorist organizations - every two bit group that has a problem living with the rest of the world, has seen fit to gather, arm, train and turn loose these cowards in just about every corner of the world.
What is scary, is the fact that there are countries that would like to get a nuclear capability so they can arm their particular terrorist group with the WMD's. If that ever happens, the world would never be the same ... 9/11 would end up being just a footnote of history.
Team Infidel
Forum Spin Doctor
Chief Bones said:
Yeah, but these a-holes have been around since the 60's and go by several different names. The PMOI/MEK/NCRI..etc... were responsible for all kinds of crap. They are a bunch of wierd A-Holes. A pain in the ass that just need to go away.