Allies and Nazi forces usuing captured equipment - Page 7

February 17th, 2012  
Originally Posted by Trooper1854
It never fails to amaze me how we were still using a bolt action rifle, although a very good one up untill the mid 1950s when nearly every other country had gone over to semi automatic and, as with the Ak 47, fully automatics.
I know guys in the Falklands who swaped their semi auto SLRs for the fully automatic Argentinian ones, and they too were fairley miffed when they had to give them up.
In the Far East the general issue rifle to RAF erks was the Lee Enfield up until about 1968 or 69 along with the BREN in 303. The RAF Regiment got the L1A1 around the same time as the Army if I remember correctly.
February 17th, 2012  
How about this?
Not only did the Luftwaffe fly a Spitfire, for evaluation purposes, but they re-engined one with a Daimler Benz engine

It was opperated by Kampfgeschwader 200, a special Luftwaffe unit that among other things tested and evaluated captured aircraft.
February 17th, 2012  
Well the British flew many a German aircraft with the RAF markings on it while they tested them. They were over joyed when a FW 190 landed in England by mistake just after they had gone into service
February 17th, 2012  
Originally Posted by Trooper1854
How about this?
Not only did the Luftwaffe fly a Spitfire, for evaluation purposes, but they re-engined one with a Daimler Benz engine

It was opperated by Kampfgeschwader 200, a special Luftwaffe unit that among other things tested and evaluated captured aircraft.
KG 200 flew a lot of captured/rebuilt aircraft...

Flying all Luftwaffe special missions

In February 1944, Luftwaffe headquarters ordered that all strategic and covert aerial reconnaissance, secret agent deliveries, special delivery flights to Japan, and experimental aircraft testing, in fact all special missions, will be concentrated in one new unit, code-named bomber wing 200. The commander of the new unit was Werner Baumbach, a very experienced and highly decorated bomber pilot and leader who survived over four years of bombing missions over enemy territory, over France, Britain, Russia, and elsewhere.
KG 200 was made of several large squadrons. It was also geographically spread in multiple bases all over Europe. The total secrecy in KG 200, as common in such top secret units, was such that its people knew very little of each other's activity, to minimize security breach in case of captivity. It had over 100 air crews and operated over 30 different German and allied aircraft types.

The 1st squadron of KG 200 was in charge of flying German secret agents to and from allied territory. It had a long-range group, and a short-range group which was spread all over Europe. It got its operational orders directly from the SD, the Nazi party's intelligence service.

The 2nd squadron of KG 200 was in charge of all other operations, including electronic warfare and special bombing missions, long range patrols as far as the US East coast, and special cargo missions which flew all the way to Japanese held North China. It operated from hidden airstrips all over Europe, usually near forests, used to hide their special aircraft from allied pilots.

Additional squadrons which were established but did not become operational before the war ended, were the German suicide attack unit, equipped with a human-piloted version of the V-1 cruise missile, and a very long range squadron intended to reach the US East coast and other remote targets.

All secret agent delivery missions were night missions, to further minimize exposure to the enemy, and they relied on the navigation skills of the navigators, which were the best and most experienced navigators in the Luftwaffe.

To further minimize the risk to both pilots and agents in secret agent insertion missions, especially when a team of agents was involved, the Luftwaffe developed a special human air drop device. It was a bomb-like cylinder carried by a bomber, in which three secret agents and their equipment could be safely dropped from the bomber to the enemy ground. The cylinder was equipped with a parachute, a telephone which enabled the secret agents to speak with the bomber pilot during the flight, and a shock absorber to further ease the landing. It allowed the German intelligence to safely land single, or teams, of secret agents in enemy territory, with heavier equipment and without the common risk of parachuting leg injuries.

Allied bombers in Luftwaffe service

During the war, the Luftwaffe downed many allied bombers over German held territory. Others landed because of technical problems. Some of these bombers remained flyable. Initially these captured bombers, such as American B-17s and B-24s and Russian Pe-2s and Tupolevs and other aircraft, were flown by the Luftwaffe for studying their capabilities for intelligence and technological analysis. These test-flown bombers were given Luftwaffe markings, like the one in the picture above.
Later, KG 200 began to use these captured long range bombers for its top secret missions. With the increasing air superiority of allied air forces, the German retreats, and the increasing use of RADAR and RADAR-equipped night fighters, it became ever harder for the German bombers to fly deep into allied airspace. Flying long-ranged captured allied bombers instead of the smaller and shorter range German bombers was a perfect solution for the Luftwaffe. These bombers could fly further and could fly over the most protected allied targets, day and night, without being even shot at, as they looked and sounded exactly like allied bombers. It was the perfect equivalent of the stealth bomber. The captured allied bombers used by KG 200 were not given German markings and remained with their original allied colors and markings for complete day or night deception of allied pilots and anti-aircraft gunners which saw them. They could fly anywhere, day or night, make aerial photos, drop agents, bomb targets, track allied bomber formations and constantly report their exact position and altitude without being intercepted by their fighter escorts, etc, etc, and so they did.

Here is the Spitfire with the Daimler DB601 engine.

And a P.38

February 17th, 2012  
Here is a list of Spitfires flown by German units:

DB Daimler-Benz AG, Testcentre for aero-engines at airfield Echterdingen (near Boblingen, South of Stuttgart).

DLV Deutsche Luft- und Versuchsanstalt at Oberpfaffenhofen SW of Munich,, a German Aero and Experimental Establishment; Comparison tests with Spitfires and German aircraft.

E.Stelle Erprobungsstelle Rechlin, a Military test centre, but also proving centre for new developments of the German Luftwaffe, based near Mtiritz-See; Comparison tests with Spitfires and German aircraft; the first flying reports for Spitfires dated from January 1941 (test flight LtBorris, JG.26).

FW Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau GmbH at Bremen, measurements of Spitfire Mk.IX, study 14th April 1944.

Me Messerschmitt AG, ex Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG (Bt), at Augsburg (Munich/Stuttgart); Repair of Spitfires; Comparison and measurements on Spitfires.

Kl Harms Klemm Flugzeugbau at Boblingen, Stuttgart South; Co-op with Messerschmitt and Daimler-Benz.

2/0KL "Zirkus Rosarius", 2nd Staffel [No.2 Sqn] of the Versuchsverband (Transport) OKL, a test and comparison unit of the HQ German Luftwaffe, formed at Oranienburg and based at Gottingen, used captured aircraft; Unit-code 'T9+ '. To leam more about Spitfires, especially handling and flying characteristics, the "Cirkus Rosarius" visited operational units, where they were flown by unit leaders and experienced pilots from 1943; The inventory listed two Spitfires 20th March 1944, and three Spitfires (Mk.V & IX) in mid 1944; Later two Spitfire PR.XI ('TE+BB' & 'TE+EK') were seen with this unit in 1944, the first being held by the staff and the second by No.2 Sqn of Versuchsverband OKL.

5/JG.2 "Gruppe Bernay", 5th Staffel [No.5 Sqn] of the 2nd Jagd-Geschwader [No.2 Fighter Wing] in France, also called Jagdlehrer- Uberpriifimgs-Staffel, a Fighter Leader Training Unit and Flight Instructor Checking Group; Tests and training also with Spitfires and other captured aircraft. Reported Spitfires at Orleans-Bricy and Le Bourget, dett Bernay and Villacoublay in France. For example, a Spitfire Mk.Ia marked '5+2', was used for comparison flying tests against Bf 109 and FW I90s in October 1942. Another Spitfire was here in April 1943, marked '3+9'.

DLV and E-Stelle used the Spitfires for comparison tests with German fighter planes. Spitfires were also tested by German aircraft producers, especially by the Messerschmitt Company and by Daimler-Benz Aero engines. The Czechoslovakian VLU Air Research Institute at Prague-Letnany, then controlled by the Germans, also used Spitfires for trials in 1944/45.
Captured Spitfires also featured in Nazi propaganda films. One, which was marked "G-X" and based at Kolberg (FJugzeugftihrerschule FFS6 (C), a Flying School in Eastern Germany, on the south coast of the Baltic Sea, now Polish Kolobrzeg, was shown being supposedly attacked by Bf 109 or FW 190 fighters, in October 1940. Despite claims to the contrary, these were not genuine combat films. In a later film, for instance, an obsolete Spitfire Mk.Ia is depicted being supposedly attacked by a much later Ta 152.
A special unit of the German North Africa troops, the "SAS Brandenburger", ferried out a captured Spitfire to Africa. There it gave air cover for troops which were crossing the Tchad, French NW Africa.
In July 1942 the Krakow Main Market Square saw the opening of a German exhibition of captured weapons. One of them was a Spitfire with the 'LY'-marking of the No.1 PRU, probably a PR variant, serial number unknown (believed to be K9791.) In France existed a "Beutepark Luftwaffe No5' (Booty Collection No.5 of the Lw) at Paris-Nanterre, which had a Spitfire Mk.I at one time.

Most of the force-landed Spitfires were dismantled for spare parts for the few flyable planes. In early 1944 the Luftwaffe inventory listed four flyable Spitfires: Mks. I, V, IX and XII. By September 1944 only three of these were in use. Additionally two non-flyable Spitfires were held in storage by the 1st Staffel/OKL (No.1 Sqn of the test unit OKL) on 20 March 1944.

F.OI Spitfire F.Ia (Merlin Ill); French FOl ("FW-B"); Orleans-Bricy, captured by Germans 18.6.40; To the
German Test-centre Rechlin (near Miiritz-See) in 1940; Fate unknown

K9867 Spitfire F.Ia (Merlin II); TOC/RAF 18.2.39; No.74 Sqn ('ZP-J'); Force-landed Calais-Marck after air combat 23.5.40 (S/Ldr FL White safe); Aircraft captured by German troops 26.5.40; To an air depot of the Luftwaffe; Fate unknown

N3277 Spitfire F.Ia (Merlin III); Became (Lw) No.52; TOC/RAF 16.1.40; No.234 Sqn ('AZ-H', named "Dirty Dick");Damaged by Bfl09 off Swanage, Dorset UK, force-landed near Cherbourg 15.8.40 (P/O R Hardy RCAF, PoW); Repaired, and to the German Testcentre at Rechlin (marked '5+2') fi'om 12.41 to 9.42; Test flown 5.6.42 (PIt HW Lerche); "Group Bernay" in France (No.5 Sqn of No.2 (F)Wing [5/JG.2]) in 1942/43; No.26 (F) Wing [JG.26] at Orleans-Bricy, flown 29.3.43 (Ofw Martin); Fate unknown

P7379 Spitfire F.IIa (Merlin XII); TOC/RAF 10.9.40; No.19 Sqn ('QV-U'); Shot down late evening by Bfl09 on sweep, force-landed wheels-up near Calais in France 27.6.41 (P/O Andrews, PoW); To an air depot of the Luftwaffe; Fate unknown

P7443 Spitfire F.IIa (Merlin XII); TOC/RAF 1.10.40; No.54.Sqn ('KL-E'); Circus 5, shot down by the first Group of No.2 (F)Wing [I/JG.2], force-landed near Calais 26.2.41 (Sgt H Squire, PoW); SOC/RAF 28.2.41 (98:05 flying hours); To E-Stelle Rechlin; Messerschmitt factory Augsburg from 21.4.41, was to be fitted with a DB601 engine, but this was cancelled; Flown at Echterdingen (near Boblingen, south of Stuttgart,); Retd to Testcentre Rechlin 9.9.42; Fate unknown

P9317 Spitfire F.Ia (Merlin Ill); TOC/RAF 10.2.40; No.222 Sqn ('ZD-A'); Air combat with Bf 109s and Bf 110s, force landed at Le Touquet airfield in France, which was held by Germans 1.6.40 (P/O HEL Falkust, PoW); To an air depot of the Luftwaffe; Possibly flown as "G-X" in a propaganda film, based Kolberg, Eastern Germany; Fate unknown

P9331 Spitfire PR. A (MerlinIII); Became Lw.No.21; TOC/RAF 29.2.40; No.212 Sqn, glycol leak, force-landed near Reims 7.6.40; Repaired and to German Lw; Testcentre Rechlin ('2+ I ') in 6.40; Fate unknown

W3824 Spitfire F.Vb (Merlin 45); Presentation aircraft 'HOLT II'; TOC/RAF 29.8.41; No.129 Sqn ('DV-F') 11.9.41, missing 27.9.41 (Sgt V Ross, PoW); SOC/RAF 28.9.41; Noted in a German air depot (almost intact); Fate unknown

X4260 Spitfire F.Ia (Merlin HI); Became Lw.No.45; TOC/RAF 23.8.40; No.603 Sqn ('XT-D'); Air combat with first Group of No.54 (F)Wing [I/JG.54] over Pas de Calais, force-landed Guines near Calais 6.9.40 (P/O JR Caister, PoW); SOC/RAF 2.11.40 (9:55 flying hours); To German Lw; With No.2 Sqn of No. 54 (F)Wing [2/JG.54] in 11.40; Messerschmitt factory Augsburg ('4+5'), test flown 20.11.40 (PIt Fritz Wendel); Fate unknown

X4385 Spitfire PR.C (Merlin 45); TOC/RAF 14.9.40; No.l PRU ('LY-B'); Force landed, undercarriage collapsed at Deelen airfield, Netherlands 22.9.41; Repaired; Testcentre Rechlin 1941/42; Fate unknown

AA835 Spitfire F Vb (Merlin 45); TOC/RAF 10.10.41; No.350 Sqn ('MN-E', marked "Stella Maris"); Circus 195 to Hazebrouck marshalling yards, force-landed in German occupied territory 29.6.42 (P/O R de Wever, PoW); To an air depot of the Luftwaffe, Fate unknown

AA837 Spitfire F.Vb (Merlin 45); TOC/RAF 26.9.41; No.501 Sqn (SD-E), force landed on the foreshore near St.L6 after air combat with Bf 109s on 4.11.41 (P/O EH Shore PoW); Mostly intact to a Luftwaffe air depot; Fate unknown

AB131 Spitfire PR.IV/D (Merlin 45); TOC/RAF 7.12.41; No.1401 (Met) Flight, force-landed near St.Trond, Belgium 12.4.42 (SOC/RAF 13.4.42; 49.55 flying hours); To an air depot of the Luftwaffe, later to a German Lw Flying School; Fate unknown

AB824 Spitfire F.Vb (Merlin 45); TOC/RAF 30.8.41; No.303 Sqn ('RF-S'), Circus 119, force-landed near St.Omer, France 4.4.42 (F/Lt Z Kurstrzynski, PoW); To an air depot of the Luftwaffe; Fate unknown

AD130 Spitfire F.Vb (Merlin 45); TOC/RAF 31.8.41; No.316 Sqn ('SZ-E'), Circus 122 to Hazebrouck marshalling yards, air combat over St.Omer, shot down by JG.26, force-landed 12.4.42 (F/O BK Buchwald); SOCIRAF 30.4.42; 188:50 flying hours); Almost intact to the Luftwaffe; Fate unknown

AR380 Spitfire F.Vb (Merlin 45); TOC/RAF 17.3.42; No.350 Sqn ('MN-Z'), Dieppe raid, force-landed in France 19.8.42 (P/O HE Marchal rescued); To an air depot of the Luftwaffe; Fate unknown

BL733 Spitfire F.Vb (Merlin 45); TOC/RAF 10.2.42; No.306.Sqn ('UZ-D'), forced landed on French Channel coast 30.7.42 (P/O Roman Pentz PoW); Mostly intact to an air depot of the Luftwaffe; Fate unknown

EN626 Spitfire LF.XIIc (Griffon IIl); TOC/RAF 19.4.43; No.91 Sqn ('DL-E'), Rhubarb, hit by flak near Gremonville, force-landed near Rouen, France 6.11.43 (W/O RAB Blumer RAAF killed); To an air depot of the Luftwaffe; Fate unknown

EN685 Spitfire PR.X1 (Merlin 61); No.542 Sqn; FTR Hannover, force-landed 13.5.44; To the Luftwaffe; Repaired, and to "Zirkus Rosarius" (2nd/OKL), marked 'T9+EK'; Flown by Lt KH Messer (First Group of No.53 (F) Wing [I/JG.53]) from Hannover-Wunstorf to Hustedt (NE of Hannover) 31.7.44; Demonstration at Dortmund, Monchengladbach, Bonninghardt, Bonn, Stadte and Husum from 2.8. to 11.8.44; Flown 21.8.44; Demonstrated by pilots of No.26 (F)Wing [JG.26] at Reinsehlen (near Schneverdingen, c.40m E of Bremen) in 11.44; Fate unknown
February 17th, 2012  
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
Well the British flew many a German aircraft with the RAF markings on it while they tested them. They were over joyed when a FW 190 landed in England by mistake just after they had gone into service
They were even more chuffed when a Ju88 night fighter landed completely intact at an RAF base after the crew got lost, flew over Wales, crossed the Bristol Channel thinking it was the English Channel and landed in southern England thinking it was Northern France!
We got our sweaty mitts on all their lovely secret airborne radar, radios, and a whole stack of other goodies!
February 17th, 2012  

EN830 Spitfire F.Vb (Merlin 45); Presentation aircraft 'CHISLEHURST AND SIDCUP'; TOC/RAF 1.5.42; No.131 Sqn, missing near Ouistreham, force-landed on Jersey after air combat 18.11.42 (P/O BWM Scheidhauer, PoW, murdered); To Messerschmitt factory Augsburg and to Echterdingen (near Boblingen, South of Stuttgart) in 12.42 (test flown by Capt Willy Ellenrieder, DaimlerBenz); Armament & radio removed, 24-volt electrical system and DB605A engine installed; To E-Stelle Rechlin, marked 'CJ+ZY'; Comparison trials with Bf 109G in 1943; Later DB601 A engine installed; Technical failure 27.4.44; Destroyed on ground at Echterdingen by an USAAF bombing raid on 14.8.44; Wreck to Klemm company at Boblingen, scrapped there
NOTE: P/O Scheidhauer took part in the Great Escape, but was recaptured at Saarbrucken, and shot dead by the Gestapo on 29 March 1944, along with 50 others who took part

EP200 Spitfire F.Vb/trop (Merlin 46); TOC/RAF 30.5.42; Arr Malta 8.42; No.185 Sqn ('GL-T'), hit by flak, forced to land, belly-landed near Comiso, Italy 27.8.42 (Pia Woodser PoW); Aircraft almost intact to the German Luftwaffe; Fate unknown

MK698 Spitfire LF.1Xc (Merlin 66); TOC/RAF 5.4.44; No.412 Sqn, dive bombing, damaged by Bf 109s south of Wesel, force-landed near Wachtendonk (Krefeld) 5.12.44 (P/O CWH Glithevo, PoW); With "Zirkus Rosarius" (2nd/OKL) 12.44; Based Hannover- Wunstorf in 1.45; Fate unknown

PL...? Spitfire PR.XI (Merlin 70); RAF unit unknown; Force landed and to Luftwaffe 1944; "Zirkus Rosarius" (2nd/OKL), marked 'T9+BB'; Shown HannoverWunstorf in 1944; Fate unknown
Possibilities: PL834 (No.16 Sqn), FTR Arnhem 20.9.44; PL904 (No.541 Sqn) FTR Bremen 28.9.44; PL906 (No.542 Sqn) FTR Munich 27.11.44; PL916 (No.683 Sqn) FTR Stuttgart 8.10.44; PL919 (No.541 Sqn) FTR Frankfurt 24.12.44; PL925 (No.400 Sqn) FTR Ruhr 28.10.44.
February 18th, 2012  
A couple more pictures of the Allies using German equipment:
An MP using a Kettenrad:

Troops in North Africa using SdKfz 251's:

British soldier with an MP 40:

German with a Tommy gun:

German with an early model PPsh-41
March 2nd, 2012  
Got a catalog in from Edward R Hamilton, booksellers. In it there's a "Hitler's Great Panzer Heist" By Anthony Tucker-Jones, says the Germans used 16,000 captured armoured vehicles. Originaly 25$, has them for only 5.95 with free S&H in March. 216 pages, 16 pages of photos. For that price..what the heck, I've ordered it, should be interesting!

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