To all the liberals tonight.... - Page 5




 
--
Boots
 
December 22nd, 2010  
Chukpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
I absolutely believe that the government is required to protect its citizens from ALL threats and not just that carry a gun or bomb. Poverty/unemployment is a threat, lack of a healthcare system is a threat, illiteracy is a threat, capitalism is a threat, inequality is a threat, organized crime is a threat, etc...
"capitalism is a threat" quote mmarsh

Been working well for over 200 years, built the largest economy the world has ever seen.
Capitalism is a threat? Spoken like a true socialist.
The US still chooses capitalism for it's economic base. It may not be perfect, but it beats the hell out of whatever is in second place.
December 22nd, 2010  
HokieMSG
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Henderson
George, if the wealthiest people all over the world give back as much as you think they do, why is there still poverty? Don't you think if allll those movie stars and allll those athletes and allll those billionaire executives gave back a real chunk of their salaries, we would have enough money to at least greatly *diminish* poverty in the United States?

Do you want to know why there's still poverty? BECAUSE THE RICH DON'T CARE.

Side note: The Anarchist Movement is not dead. It just has a new name........
Rob,
The problem here is that the government is trying to fix a square peg in a round hole. Because government assistance programs reach out to as many people as possible they tend to be VERY inefficient and never really help the way they should.
I resent it when people EXPECT the government to clean up after some disaster.
I resent the government stepping in and telling banks they HAVE to loan money to unqualified individuals, then are forced to get involved when these same people can't make their payments. I have lived in my house for over 5 years, never missed a mortgage payment and I didn't get any money from the government when the banks were bailed out. I resent that I only borrowed what I expected I could pay back and people who borrowed way more than they could afford to pay back are helped out by the government. What's my motivation for continuing to pay my bills on time? So what if my credit gets wrecked, the government will help me out if I need help or not.

As to the standardized test scores. China really? We are expected to believe test scores reported by the Chinese government? I guess it is OK to ignore the repression of their citizens.
December 22nd, 2010  
mmarsh
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukpike
"capitalism is a threat" quote mmarsh

Been working well for over 200 years, built the largest economy the world has ever seen.
Capitalism is a threat? Spoken like a true socialist.
The US still chooses capitalism for it's economic base. It may not be the perfect, but it beats the hell out of whatever is in second place.

HA! Just how blind are you? Please preach the virtues of capitalism to the thousands who lost there job, home, livelihood the last few years due to the predatory nature of capitalism while Wall Street had one of the most profitable years ever this year. Yeah, capitalism been working real well...for a very small few, but in case you've been asleep the past 5 years its not been so good for the rest of us.

Not everyone has a trust fund or a 6-figure salary. Since the early 1980s Pure Capitalists such as yourself either still haven't realized this or have become so selfish they simply don't give a sh*t about anyone else. But by all means, convince the next GOP/conservative candidate in 2012 to run on the successes of 21 Century Capitalism. See how many votes you get outside of lower Manhattan, I absolutely promise you that the Democrats will love you for it.

The fact is pure capitalism is AS BAD as pure socialism, but since we don't have socialism in the USA thats why it wasn't on the previous list. Why is it bad? Because it promotes greed, selfishness and the desire of the powerful few to exploit the weaker many. Does this sound familiar? it should if you have been reading the newspaper. In my view, only a system that combines elements of both socialism and capitalism will work. Falling too far to either extreme is a recipe for disaster.

Only a blind sheep or someone profiting from the status quo would actually try and rationalize a bad economic system merely by its 200 year history, regardless of how bad the situation has become. And if echoing the obvious ills of capitalism makes me a socialist than so be. I'd rather be a "evil" socialist, than a blind old fool too stupid and ignorant to see hes getting screwed or someone so selfish they can only see as far as their own nose.

BTW other selfish societies like Louis XVI France and Czarist Russia both came to a very sticky end. You push a people too far, make them too desperate, and the almost certain backlash will hit you harder than a Tsunami.
--
Boots
December 22nd, 2010  
A Can of Man
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh

BTW other selfish societies like Louis XVI France and Czarist Russia both came to a very sticky end. You push a people too far, make them too desperate, and the almost certain backlash will hit you harder than a Tsunami.
I don't see it happening in this day and age.
We have too many things that help us "blow off steam" and go back into the BS.
December 22nd, 2010  
mmarsh
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Can of Man
I don't see it happening in this day and age.
We have too many things that help us "blow off steam" and go back into the BS.

I think its distinct possibility. The economic pie is only so big. Sooner or later the "haves" are going to get too greedy, its their nature. For most of them there is no such thing as "rich enough". That will be the spark.

A few more years of bumper wall street bonuses and very high unemployment and all bets are off. Already there are signs of people getting fed up of economic chasm between rich and poor and that gap keeps widening. In the short term, if we are still in a jobless recovery in 2012 someone is going to pay the price (who specifically depends how both parties play their cards), if in the long term there is no improvement the mob might get involved.
December 22nd, 2010  
A Can of Man
 
 
I won't be holding my breath.
They will screw with us for as long as we want and when someone steps up to do anything, he's just going to be another "crazed gunman" on the 9 o'Clock news. We got more important things to do, like watch reality shows and try to become the next platinum selling rapper.
December 22nd, 2010  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Henderson
In a country this big, a large, involved national government is ESSENTIAL. The states are not countries unto themselves, they are STATES. They are not capable of running themselves completely. They need the federal government.
England didn't grant independance to the United States, but to independent Republics, they were countries unto themselves. They recognized that individually they were weak militarilily & economicly. They created the Fed. Govt.(instead of the other way around) and gave it limited power(power not given to the Fed. Govt. remains with the States) to conduct unified foriegn, monetary & military positions. They didn't want it sticking its fingers into everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
George

Such as? Please state these programs you mention.

And its a really weak argument to state people are "suckers" because they don't happen to buy the BS you are selling. The painful truth to you is that Clinton left office a very popular president (about 60%), the guy after him who embraced the "limited government" ideology you embrace...much less popular.

And on that subject, "limited government" is a crock of bull. The largest governments to date have all been republican governments. The GOP believes in limited government only when its the Democrats who are in office, you don't hear them mention "limited government" when the conservatives are in office. Funny coincidence isn't it?

Whose the "sucker" George? The vast majority of the public who would kill to return to the Clinton era or someone like you who promotes a radical ideology without question that has proven time and time again to be totally wrong, and self-destructive. As for Ted going off the "deep end", you need to take a good look in the mirror. Even to establishment republicans your views would be considered nuts.

And COM is correct, your self-described paradise of a place with no government actually already exists its called Somalia. Is that what you have in mind for us? Thanks, we will pass.
During the Reagan Era the Dems found that people have a soft spot in the head when it comes to "children", so they packaged the "sales pitch" for as much as possible as "childrens programs". Recently one L.A. Dem had 23 yr old adults in her District declared "children" to qualify for some program in her District.(not to mention adults up to 26 qualify for children status for insurance coverage under ObamaCare). Then under Clinton "Invest" was the buzz word to sell the sales pitch for various programs. Clinton declared the Era of Big Govt. over, but...he greatly expanded Govt spending while the Reps focused on the narrowing deficit instead of expanded Govt spending. Clinton claimed to have reduced the Govt, but in reallity the number of Govt employees did drop, but in typical Democrat manner of cutting large number of military personnell while expanding employment in non defence segments of the govt. And no, I've said many times I wasn't happy with the spending of Big Govt Republicans that ran things in Congress & the White House during the Bush 2 Era. You're delusional if you think there's any real support for no govt. at all(somalia). And the only time you hear Dems talking about responcible spending is during elections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Henderson
By the way, George. Just a little tidbit for you to munch on till the morning... The latest standardized testing scores just came out... Wanna know who's on top in EVERY CATEGORY?

Shang Hai, China. But government involvement in education is bad, right?
Recent studies show a number of Asian counties testing above the US. Why is that? Probably don't have Liberal concepts like "social promotion", not worrying about the childs self esteem if pushed to achieve goals through hard work, ect. The studies showed that they go to school more days than here, so the knee jerk reaction was a call to increase the number of days in school instead of looking at curiculum. then it turned out that they go fewer hours a day than here, & total hours in a school year was LESS than here & no one said we should cut the number of hours. Just doesn't go with throwing money @ a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
HA! Just how blind are you? Please preach the virtues of capitalism to the thousands who lost there job, home, livelihood the last few years due to the predatory nature of capitalism while Wall Street had one of the most profitable years ever this year. Yeah, capitalism been working real well...for a very small few, but in case you've been asleep the past 5 years its not been so good for the rest of us.

Not everyone has a trust fund or a 6-figure salary. Since the early 1980s Pure Capitalists such as yourself either still haven't realized this or have become so selfish they simply don't give a sh*t about anyone else. But by all means, convince the next GOP/conservative candidate in 2012 to run on the successes of 21 Century Capitalism. See how many votes you get outside of lower Manhattan, I absolutely promise you that the Democrats will love you for it.

The fact is pure capitalism is AS BAD as pure socialism, but since we don't have socialism in the USA thats why it wasn't on the previous list. Why is it bad? Because it promotes greed, selfishness and the desire of the powerful few to exploit the weaker many. Does this sound familiar? it should if you have been reading the newspaper. In my view, only a system that combines elements of both socialism and capitalism will work. Falling too far to either extreme is a recipe for disaster.

Only a blind sheep or someone profiting from the status quo would actually try and rationalize a bad economic system merely by its 200 year history, regardless of how bad the situation has become. And if echoing the obvious ills of capitalism makes me a socialist than so be. I'd rather be a "evil" socialist, than a blind old fool too stupid and ignorant to see hes getting screwed or someone so selfish they can only see as far as their own nose.
There hasn't been Pure Capitalism here in many Decades &, like Anarchism, no one is talking about going back to the Robber Baron days. There are & always will be crooks. But the Liberals, pushing thier class warfare, make it harder & harder for the little people to get ahead. Like one article I read said...if you're lucky enough to find a million $ antique & decide to sell, depending on what State you live in, you'll be ripped off for apx. 50% of the value because suddenly your'e income puts you in the evil rich. Some States will tax you every year just for the privilige of owning something that valuable, all the result of mental midgit's anger @ the rich.
December 22nd, 2010  
Rob Henderson
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HokieMSG
Rob,
The problem here is that the government is trying to fix a square peg in a round hole. Because government assistance programs reach out to as many people as possible they tend to be VERY inefficient and never really help the way they should.
I resent it when people EXPECT the government to clean up after some disaster.
Really? So who should have cleaned up after Katrina? You think the local sheriff's department was equipped enough to handle that? You think the State Troopah's uhf Luziana wuz ready fer som'n like dat dere?

NO. The federal government needed to get involved because the federal government was the only entity with the capabilities necessary to mount any sort of successful rescue/rebuilding operations. Now, the federal government was not managed well, thanks to the man who was elected president with a C- average from Yale, but that does not mean that the federal government shouldn't have run in to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HokieMSG
I resent the government stepping in and telling banks they HAVE to loan money to unqualified individuals, then are forced to get involved when these same people can't make their payments. I have lived in my house for over 5 years, never missed a mortgage payment and I didn't get any money from the government when the banks were bailed out. I resent that I only borrowed what I expected I could pay back and people who borrowed way more than they could afford to pay back are helped out by the government. What's my motivation for continuing to pay my bills on time? So what if my credit gets wrecked, the government will help me out if I need help or not.
Hokie, you know how the effects of one presidency aren't really felt until the next president is in office?.... Yeah... About that.

But your motivation for paying bills on time is the pride that you don't need the government. You can go through life knowing that you lived responsibly without any help from anybody. You played by the rules and came out okay.

Trust me, if you try to live lavishly with no regard to financial responsibility and then can't pay it back, the government will find a way to screw you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HokieMSG
As to the standardized test scores. China really? We are expected to believe test scores reported by the Chinese government? I guess it is OK to ignore the repression of their citizens.
Pahahahahahahahaha!!! You think the Chinese government has to lie about their test scores?? Just look at Chinese immigrants to America! They excel in every category. They start physics in MIDDLE SCHOOL. They start teaching their children English as soon as they start school. They have consistently higher scores in math, science, and reading. Not only that, but they often outperform us in the arts. Asian students are the cream of the crop in music conservatories. When I went to Milan this past summer, and visited the Verdi Opera Conservatory, over HALF of the students were international. And guess where they came from... China. Japan. Korea.


Not saying China's government is perfect, as it is more of a testament to the culture's discipline, but it sure shows that government involvement is NOT always a bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George
England didn't grant independance to the United States, but to independent Republics, they were countries unto themselves. They recognized that individually they were weak militarilily & economicly. They created the Fed. Govt.(instead of the other way around) and gave it limited power(power not given to the Fed. Govt. remains with the States) to conduct unified foriegn, monetary & military positions. They didn't want it sticking its fingers into everything.
That was also 300 years ago. Give me a f**king break, George. You're smarter than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by George
Recent studies show a number of Asian counties testing above the US. Why is that? Probably don't have Liberal concepts like "social promotion", not worrying about the childs self esteem if pushed to achieve goals through hard work, ect. The studies showed that they go to school more days than here, so the knee jerk reaction was a call to increase the number of days in school instead of looking at curiculum. then it turned out that they go fewer hours a day than here, & total hours in a school year was LESS than here & no one said we should cut the number of hours. Just doesn't go with throwing money @ a problem.
This response did nothing to refute my claims that government involvement is not always a bad thing....
December 22nd, 2010  
Chukpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukpike
"capitalism is a threat" quote mmarsh

Been working well for over 200 years, built the largest economy the world has ever seen.
Capitalism is a threat? Spoken like a true socialist.
The US still chooses capitalism for it's economic base. It may not be perfect, but it beats the hell out of whatever is in second place.
HA! Just how blind are you? Please preach the virtues of capitalism to the thousands who lost there job, home, livelihood the last few years due to the predatory nature of capitalism while Wall Street had one of the most profitable years ever this year. Yeah, capitalism been working real well...for a very small few, but in case you've been asleep the past 5 years its not been so good for the rest of us.

Not everyone has a trust fund or a 6-figure salary. Since the early 1980s Pure Capitalists such as yourself either still haven't realized this or have become so selfish they simply don't give a sh*t about anyone else. But by all means, convince the next GOP/conservative candidate in 2012 to run on the successes of 21 Century Capitalism. See how many votes you get outside of lower Manhattan, I absolutely promise you that the Democrats will love you for it.

The fact is pure capitalism is AS BAD as pure socialism, but since we don't have socialism in the USA thats why it wasn't on the previous list. Why is it bad? Because it promotes greed, selfishness and the desire of the powerful few to exploit the weaker many. Does this sound familiar? it should if you have been reading the newspaper. In my view, only a system that combines elements of both socialism and capitalism will work. Falling too far to either extreme is a recipe for disaster.

Only a blind sheep or someone profiting from the status quo would actually try and rationalize a bad economic system merely by its 200 year history, regardless of how bad the situation has become. And if echoing the obvious ills of capitalism makes me a socialist than so be. I'd rather be a "evil" socialist, than a blind old fool too stupid and ignorant to see hes getting screwed or someone so selfish they can only see as far as their own nose.

BTW other selfish societies like Louis XVI France and Czarist Russia both came to a very sticky end. You push a people too far, make them too desperate, and the almost certain backlash will hit you harder than a Tsunami.
You got all this from my statement? I even said US Capitalism may not be perfect. You turn that into:
"Pure Capitalists such as yourself either still haven't realized this or have become so selfish they simply don't give a sh*t about anyone else."

"Only a blind sheep or someone profiting from the status quo would actually try and rationalize a bad economic system merely by its 200 year history, regardless of how bad the situation has become."

"The fact is pure capitalism is AS BAD as pure socialism, but since we don't have socialism in the USA thats why it wasn't on the previous list."

Pretty bizarre post even for you. You live in France, a socialist leaning system, how is that working? Mass student riots and protests, transportation unions shutting down transportation. Government workers protesting because the socialist government can not deliver on promises to support the population with retirement programs.

You are like Nero. Sitting around in your adopted country fiddling, while your country burns down around you.

US does not have socialism? What are Medicare, Social Security, and President Obama's health plan?
December 22nd, 2010  
Rob Henderson
 
 
Until you see socialism as more than just a stepping stone to communism (which is like saying alcohol is a gateway drug), you will never see why socialism can ever be a good thing.


Which is only a tribute to your sheer lack of compassion for others. But that's okay, Chukpike. You do what makes YOU happy. Because that's all that matters, right? You get yours and damn the rest. Right on. That's the REAL American dream.
 


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