Again FRANCE, this time Job Market Protests
Marinerhodes
Active member
Those dang French!! *starts boarding up his glass house*
phoenix80
Banned
PJ24 said:
I thought this is some thing every one of us knows by now
But here you go
Violence mars huge marches in France against new jobs law
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1143498799740&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Another Nationwide Strike Disrupts France
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1803861
Marinerhodes
Active member
I was looking for something that stated in simple terms what the actual labor laws were. Unfortunately after 10 minutes search (yes, I have little patience for research) I was unable to locate anything (in English) that applied.
It seems to me they are saying: "No, don't make me work harder to make myself useful to my employer(s) so they will retain me instead of firing me and hiring a better or more proficient worker".
It seems to me they are saying: "No, don't make me work harder to make myself useful to my employer(s) so they will retain me instead of firing me and hiring a better or more proficient worker".
PJ24
Active member
I didn't read the whole thing, but this seems to be a summary.
French Labor Law
There's also this that I found:
Q&A French Labor Law
I guess I can see both sides of the argument, but there is simply too much room for abuse with this. It's really odd how the youth is treated there, and I find it VERY odd it goes all the way up to the age of 26.
French Labor Law
There's also this that I found:
Q&A French Labor Law
I guess I can see both sides of the argument, but there is simply too much room for abuse with this. It's really odd how the youth is treated there, and I find it VERY odd it goes all the way up to the age of 26.
mmarsh
Active member
I can shed some light on this law to anyone interested...
When you are hired full time in France, you are given a 2 month trial period (renewable once, if the employer chooses). During that trial period an employee can be fired for any reason. After the trial period it is nearly impossible unless in the most dire of circumstances such as theft, violence, major error, or economic layoff (to which in the later the employer much pay a major severance package, and is barred from hiring anyone else). Its a very nice system for the employee like me
, but is a major problem to the employer.
What this law does is extend the trial period for two years under these conditions...
A) for people under 26 years old
AND
B) only for companies with less 20 people (CPE law applies to small business only).
So as you can see this effects a very small minority. So whats the hub-bub about? The Unions and students feel that this very small change will be the start of a dismantelment of workers rights, lets in the floodgates so to speak. This is laughable because the people protesting are those who will become French Civil Servants. These Civil Servants have the cushest jobs in France (pay and benefits) compared to the private sector. Its only normal they are trying to protect the status quo. Unfortunatly with emerging economies like China, its simply impossible to maintain the old system and stay competitive.
These strict labor laws and high taxes kill job creation in France which of course leads to high unemployment. Everybody knows this, but nobody wants to be the one with his/her benefits cut.
When you are hired full time in France, you are given a 2 month trial period (renewable once, if the employer chooses). During that trial period an employee can be fired for any reason. After the trial period it is nearly impossible unless in the most dire of circumstances such as theft, violence, major error, or economic layoff (to which in the later the employer much pay a major severance package, and is barred from hiring anyone else). Its a very nice system for the employee like me
, but is a major problem to the employer.What this law does is extend the trial period for two years under these conditions...
A) for people under 26 years old
AND
B) only for companies with less 20 people (CPE law applies to small business only).
So as you can see this effects a very small minority. So whats the hub-bub about? The Unions and students feel that this very small change will be the start of a dismantelment of workers rights, lets in the floodgates so to speak. This is laughable because the people protesting are those who will become French Civil Servants. These Civil Servants have the cushest jobs in France (pay and benefits) compared to the private sector. Its only normal they are trying to protect the status quo. Unfortunatly with emerging economies like China, its simply impossible to maintain the old system and stay competitive.
These strict labor laws and high taxes kill job creation in France which of course leads to high unemployment. Everybody knows this, but nobody wants to be the one with his/her benefits cut.
Marinerhodes
Active member
So basically they are making people have decent or good work ethics for 2 years instead of two months? I presume the age limit is based on some study as to job stability and work ethics.
That it applies to small companies I can see where it will benefit them if their employees decide to slack off after 2 months. Get rid of them and find more competent workers.
That it applies to small companies I can see where it will benefit them if their employees decide to slack off after 2 months. Get rid of them and find more competent workers.
sunb!
Forum Barbecuer
mmarsh said:I can shed some light on this law to anyone interested...
When you are hired full time in France, you are given a 2 month trial period (renewable once, if the employer chooses). During that trial period an employee can be fired for any reason. After the trial period it is nearly impossible unless in the most dire of circumstances such as theft, violence, major error, or economic layoff (to which in the later the employer much pay a major severance package, and is barred from hiring anyone else). Its a very nice system for the employee like me
We have a 6 month trial period in Norway, it can be extended with 2 or 3 months if the employee or employer are uncertain, the other terms mentioned applies up here as well.
What we see now is that vacant jobs are passed through Adecco, Proffice and so on; where people under the age of 25/26 are given short term jobs (which may lead to a full time job in the end (that is after 6 to 9 months)), but the person is working on a month to month basis. If he or she fails one month it is very easy to end up in the dole que. This is widely used in telemarketing and other sales, but is also seen on mechanical work shops, shopping malls, cafè and resturants and in the cargo carrier business.
Positive, negative? I did work for one of the above mentioned companies - had :cen: bad conditions and the big question now in domestic politics is to promote the usage of short term labour to be more competative with Europe and South East Asia.
Way to go, not! There are so many problems in Europe today, and the politicians do not have a clue on how new laws, new taxes and so on will affect the job marked. I sometimes wonder the politicans are sane.
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PJ24
Active member
Most companies/businesses in the US have a probationary period, they can run as short as 30 days to as long as 12 months or so. It is not, however, mandatory by the government, but is a personal choice for the company/business. This means they can fire you at any time if you do not perform to standards and your benefits do not start until you've completed the probationary period.
I'm not sure I see a reason for the government to get involved. Why not let the companies decide how long their probationary periods run? I still don't see why they are attempting to alienate the youth of their country. 26 seems a bit old to carry such an attitude over, as well.
I've seen just as many lazy asses that were in their 30s and 40s as I have those in their early 20s.
Perhaps I don't understand the culture where young adults are treated like third class citizens, but this still seems a little overboard to me.
You would find me hard pressed to be loyal to a company for two years, regardless of my worth ethic, if I knew they could fire me at any time for no true cause. Job security is a very important thing.
Maybe I just don't understand it all.
I'm not sure I see a reason for the government to get involved. Why not let the companies decide how long their probationary periods run? I still don't see why they are attempting to alienate the youth of their country. 26 seems a bit old to carry such an attitude over, as well.
I've seen just as many lazy asses that were in their 30s and 40s as I have those in their early 20s.
Perhaps I don't understand the culture where young adults are treated like third class citizens, but this still seems a little overboard to me.
You would find me hard pressed to be loyal to a company for two years, regardless of my worth ethic, if I knew they could fire me at any time for no true cause. Job security is a very important thing.
Maybe I just don't understand it all.
Marinerhodes
Active member
PJ24 said:
All they have to do in the US is call the job a different name, add a few different responsibilities while taking a few away and hire the replacement.
I have seen it happen. The guy sued the company and lost because his job duties for his job title/position were taken up by others and the "new guy" was doing somehting different. FYI he was canned because he threw a hissy about the companies declining business ethics.
mmarsh
Active member
PJ24
Is the probationary period new? Despite my French flag Im actually an American working abroad. Previous to my transfer overseas (8 years ago) I dont recall ever having a probationary period. If I recall correctly, I collected company benefits immediatly, (well if you can call them that, bloody HMO...:?).
I dont really see the point of having a probationary period in the USA because an employer can still fire your behind without notice even if youve been there 20 years. Its not commonly done, but it is legal. Sounds more like a cheap tactic for employers to postpone paying employee benefits.
In France its different, companies need the probation period because once an employee is FullTime is nigh impossible to get rid of them. The probationary period allows companies to weed out those who dont conform to company expectations before they become a permenant problem.
Having worked in both the USA and France I'd say both countries have the exact opposite problem. In France the labor laws are too protectionist to the employee, which stiffles business, while in the USA workers are basically at the mercy of their employer with almost no protection.
Is the probationary period new? Despite my French flag Im actually an American working abroad. Previous to my transfer overseas (8 years ago) I dont recall ever having a probationary period. If I recall correctly, I collected company benefits immediatly, (well if you can call them that, bloody HMO...:?).
I dont really see the point of having a probationary period in the USA because an employer can still fire your behind without notice even if youve been there 20 years. Its not commonly done, but it is legal. Sounds more like a cheap tactic for employers to postpone paying employee benefits.
In France its different, companies need the probation period because once an employee is FullTime is nigh impossible to get rid of them. The probationary period allows companies to weed out those who dont conform to company expectations before they become a permenant problem.
Having worked in both the USA and France I'd say both countries have the exact opposite problem. In France the labor laws are too protectionist to the employee, which stiffles business, while in the USA workers are basically at the mercy of their employer with almost no protection.
PJ24
Active member
mmarsh said:
No, it's been like that since as long as I can remember. Almost any job you get here requires you to work a probationary period and has for years, and like I said, they vary in length. It's up to the company though, not the government, as I believe it should be.
From professional jobs, to high school jobs (movie stores, restaurants, etc) almost every business I can think of has a probationary period.
Despite MarineRhodes experiences, and I'm sure there are some companies that can get away with it especially if workers don't know what rights they have; it is pretty difficult to get fired these days. You've got to have a ton of paperwork to back your decision. Too many lawsuits. If you fire a guy, and don't have enough evidence to back up why you fired him, he will get his job back if he wants it. I've seen it happen so many times. You can almost forget firing a guy if there's a union.
Not anymore. Remember, lawyers aren't hurting for business in the US anymore. It has gotten ridiculous what companies/businesses have to do to fire someone and not leave themselves open to a lawsuit.
mmarsh
Active member
Despite MarineRhodes experiences, and I'm sure there are some companies that can get away with it especially if workers don't know what rights they have; it is pretty difficult to get fired these days. You've got to have a ton of paperwork to back your decision. Too many lawsuits. If you fire a guy, and don't have enough evidence to back up why you fired him, he will get his job back if he wants it. I've seen it happen so many times. You can almost forget firing a guy if there's a union.
Thats just it an employer doesnt have to give reason. In my last contract it said specifically that I could be terminated without cause. The only way you can contest a termination is if the employer has done something illegal or unconstituional. And dont think the unions will protect much you either, the unions have been able to do much to stop companies outsourceing overseas. If the CEO wants to fire 1000 workers without cause just so the share price can raise 1% you better believe he can do it. In France he cannot with paying major compensation with a hiring freeze to boot.
Thats just it an employer doesnt have to give reason. In my last contract it said specifically that I could be terminated without cause. The only way you can contest a termination is if the employer has done something illegal or unconstituional. And dont think the unions will protect much you either, the unions have been able to do much to stop companies outsourceing overseas. If the CEO wants to fire 1000 workers without cause just so the share price can raise 1% you better believe he can do it. In France he cannot with paying major compensation with a hiring freeze to boot.
I find it funny that the Americans seem to focus on the draw-back of harder-to-fire-employees. Employees who are fired are leazy or have no work ethics (at least, that is the picture I get from your reactions.) In Holland we tend to think of the abusive powers companies get when you can fire somebody so easily. Isn't that interesting?
p.s. Most of the violence was commited by others then the students. Again this is ascribed to the outcasts in the Banlieu's around Paris.. yes, the same ones as last time>)
p.s. Most of the violence was commited by others then the students. Again this is ascribed to the outcasts in the Banlieu's around Paris.. yes, the same ones as last time>)
