Admiral Canaris, influence on WW2?

perseus

perseus

Active member
I’m surprised we haven’t spoke more about this remarkable individual. How much do you think his actions, or perhaps the lack of them, shortened or even affected the outcome of the war?

Here is a short summary of his later career

Admiral Canaris was appointed to head the Abwehr Military Intelligence in 1938. The spymaster had eyes and ears everywhere, and he had files full of damaging evidence against the leading Nazis, among them Heydrich and Himmler that made them afraid to cross him. Canaris intervened to save a number of victims of Nazi persecution, including hundreds of Jews. Canaris was directly involved in the 1938 and 1939 coup attempts on Hitler and helped the Allies while supervising all German espionage and counterespionage. He was eventually arrested, brutally treated and hanged a few weeks before the war ended.

His actions
  • hindered Hitler's attempts to absorb Czechoslovakia
  • convinced Hitler gave up his plans to incorporate Switzerland into his New Europe.
  • convinced Franco not to allow passage to the Germans for the purpose of capturing Gibraltar.
  • revealed important German strategy and battle plans to the Allies from Hitler's impending western offensive against the Low countries and Hitler's plan to invade Britain.
  • exaggerated British strength helping to dissuade Hitler from launching Sealion
  • misled Hitler into believing that the Allies would not land at Anzio in 1943.
Whilst highly speculative, perhaps if he was loyal to his country and executed his duties diligently, his department may have
  • discovered that axis codes had been broken and took remedial action
  • placed competent spies in foreign countries, particularly Britain where they could report on the pitiful state of the home defences in May 1940 and the size and location of the invasion force in June 1944.
  • informed on the progress and details of secret weapons, in particular short wave radar and the Manhattan project
  • informed of shipping timetables and routes
  • assassinated Churchill or played on his impulsiveness.
  • found out about the true extent of Soviet strength in 1941 and the presence and capabilities of their latest tanks.
  • forecast the 1941 winter offensive movement
  • identified the plan to cut off Stalingrad
  • identified the main thrust of the Soviet offensive in June 1944
I suggest any one of these would have significantly prolonged the war and any two could have reversed it.

http://www.canaris.dk/http://www.canaris.dk/new_page_3.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QPGC7PCwgRgC&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=admiral+canaris+sealion&source=web&ots=14xr4U3Que&sig=g6xzSfVLoGHav_EWl6gWRwUo5-w&hl=en
 
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Oddly enough I would love to discuss Admiral Canaris but I don't know a damn thing about him and worst of all I can't find anything concrete about him either.
Whilst highly speculative, perhaps if he was loyal to his country and executed his duties diligently, his department may have
  • discovered that axis codes had been broken and took remedial action
  • placed competent spies in foreign countries, particularly Britain where they could report on the pitiful state of the home defences in May 1940 and the size and location of the invasion force in June 1944.
  • informed on the progress and details of secret weapons, in particular short wave radar and the Manhattan project
  • informed of shipping timetables and routes
  • assassinated Churchill or played on his impulsiveness.
  • found out about the true extent of Soviet strength in 1941 and the presence and capabilities of their latest tanks.
  • forecast the 1941 winter offensive movement
  • identified the plan to cut off Stalingrad
  • identified the main thrust of the Soviet offensive in June 1944
I suggest any one of these would have significantly prolonged the war and any two could have reversed it.
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The problem I have with accepting these points is that while it may mean that Canaris was a closet double agent or "anti-nazi" it also means that the entire Abwehr were completely incompetent and that in itself is probably worth discussing because the failings of German intelligence cost Germany dearly.

 
MontyB said:
Oddly enough I would love to discuss Admiral Canaris but I don't know a damn thing about him and worst of all I can't find anything concrete about him either.

The problem I have with accepting these points is that while it may mean that Canaris was a closet double agent or "anti-nazi" it also means that the entire Abwehr were completely incompetent and that in itself is probably worth discussing because the failings of German intelligence cost Germany dearly.
Click to expand...

So your view is that just one man, even at the top of the intelligence profession, couldn't significantly hinder the whole organisation since his subordinates should have shown the necessary initiative or even report him?

The Abwehr must have known about the security activities on the Eastern front and concentration camps. Given that they would have been typically intelligent people, perhaps less inclined to be indoctrinated with Nazi ideology might this have simply disillusioned them, propelling them into lethargy rather than sabotage? This may have been their best option given that they must also have been aware of the military problems and the massive forces accumulating against them.

Perhaps I'm painting an over optimistic and all too rational image of human behaviour here.
 
perseus said:
So your view is that just one man, even at the top of the intelligence profession, couldn't significantly hinder the whole organisation since his subordinates should have shown the necessary initiative or even report him?
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I do believe he could hinder things to a certain degree but in an environment where everyone was encouraged to report each other I don't believe he could have had any major impact and lasted as long as he did.

The Abwehr must have known about the security activities on the Eastern front and concentration camps. Given that they would have been typically intelligent people, perhaps less inclined to be indoctrinated with Nazi ideology might this have simply disillusioned them, propelling them into lethargy rather than sabotage? This may have been their best option given that they must also have been aware of the military problems and the massive forces accumulating against them.

Perhaps I'm painting an over optimistic and all too rational image of human behaviour here.
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I have no doubt they did know about these things and I have no doubt that some of them actively fought against the Nazi regime but it was only going to take one or two ambitious types within the organisation to sink them.

Think about it like this, there you are goose stepping about on your daily business and everything you do gets torpedoed by the management do you:
A) Shrug and collect you pay check.
B) Go to the management and find out whats going on.
C) Start with option B and then realise that a quick word to your friendly neighhood Gestapo officer will get you a step up the ladder and a few more Reichmarks a week.

Dont mis-understand me though Admiral Canaris could well have done all you have said I honestly don't know as I don't know anything about the guy and you have sparked an interest so I will no doubt start hunting down information on him and his department. I had hoped that someone else would responded as it is an interesting subject.

So while I still believe German Military Intelligence during WW2 was almost a complete failure I am not yet ready to attribute that failure to Canaris without a bit more information.

 
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The fact that he managed to survive while Hitler was in power speaks volumes on him keeping a low profile. Many of the Hitlers advisers suddenly found that they had been secretly helping the allied cause after they had been captured and put on trial. Now being a cyncial old so and so I would like to much more confirmation of what he said he did.
 
LeEnfield said:
The fact that he managed to survive while Hitler was in power speaks volumes on him keeping a low profile. Many of the Hitlers advisers suddenly found that they had been secretly helping the allied cause after they had been captured and put on trial. Now being a cyncial old so and so I would like to much more confirmation of what he said he did.
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Canaris was eventually found out and hanged by the Nazis, so he couldn't have faked a pro-allied stance, unless others did it for him. The dead usually get blamed for the misdeeds of others anyway in these circumstances. Hitler got blamed for just about everything, "I was only obeying orders".
 
Canaris and the holocaust

I have recently found a declassified WW2 document located in the British National Archives that provides information about Canaris and how he ran the Abwehr. The document is a British intelligence translation of an Abwehr paper found in Belgium. The document relates to an Abwehr officers conference in Belgium on December 10th 1941. It was translated by Britsh intelligence (probably MI6) on 18th December 1941. The paper was clearly the text of a "pep talk" given by the Admiral Canaris to his officers in Belgium. The most interesting part is Paragraph 5.

"Abwehr has nothing to do with persecution of Jews. The Ast's duties are to be carried out in a humane and soldierly manner. Activity against Jews is no concern of ours. We have nothing to do with it, hold ourselves aloof from it, do not criticise".

The rest of the document covers the general standards of operation and personal behaviour his officers should follow. The N.A. file number is HW 19/347. I have placed a pdf of the paper here - http://cdmnet.org/technology/RSS/Abwehr-doc-1941.pdf
 
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I don't know why people are still fascinated by spy stories (maybe they were seeing to much J.Bond:cool:)
The whole Canaris story is a myth .His role in WWII was negligible .
 
lljadw said:
I don't know why people are still fascinated by spy stories (maybe they were seeing to much J.Bond:cool:)
The whole Canaris story is a myth .His role in WWII was negligible .
Click to expand...

Care to be a little more specific?

Oh and for the record the Ian Fleming story is an interesting one as well.
 
perseus said:
I’m surprised we haven’t spoke more about this remarkable individual. How much do you think his actions, or perhaps the lack of them, shortened or even affected the outcome of the war?

Here is a short summary of his later career

Admiral Canaris was appointed to head the Abwehr Military Intelligence in 1938. The spymaster had eyes and ears everywhere, and he had files full of damaging evidence against the leading Nazis, among them Heydrich and Himmler that made them afraid to cross him. Canaris intervened to save a number of victims of Nazi persecution, including hundreds of Jews. Canaris was directly involved in the 1938 and 1939 coup attempts on Hitler and helped the Allies while supervising all German espionage and counterespionage. He was eventually arrested, brutally treated and hanged a few weeks before the war ended.


His actions
  • hindered Hitler's attempts to absorb Czechoslovakia
  • convinced Hitler gave up his plans to incorporate Switzerland into his New Europe.
  • convinced Franco not to allow passage to the Germans for the purpose of capturing Gibraltar.
  • revealed important German strategy and battle plans to the Allies from Hitler's impending western offensive against the Low countries and Hitler's plan to invade Britain.
  • exaggerated British strength helping to dissuade Hitler from launching Sealion
  • misled Hitler into believing that the Allies would not land at Anzio in 1943.
Whilst highly speculative, perhaps if he was loyal to his country and executed his duties diligently, his department may have
  • discovered that axis codes had been broken and took remedial action
  • placed competent spies in foreign countries, particularly Britain where they could report on the pitiful state of the home defences in May 1940 and the size and location of the invasion force in June 1944.
  • informed on the progress and details of secret weapons, in particular short wave radar and the Manhattan project
  • informed of shipping timetables and routes
  • assassinated Churchill or played on his impulsiveness.
  • found out about the true extent of Soviet strength in 1941 and the presence and capabilities of their latest tanks.
  • forecast the 1941 winter offensive movement
  • identified the plan to cut off Stalingrad
  • identified the main thrust of the Soviet offensive in June 1944
I suggest any one of these would have significantly prolonged the war and any two could have reversed it.

http://www.canaris.dk/http://www.canaris.dk/new_page_3.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QPGC7PCwgRgC&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=admiral+canaris+sealion&source=web&ots=14xr4U3Que&sig=g6xzSfVLoGHav_EWl6gWRwUo5-w&hl=en
Click to expand...
A little more specific
1)The files of Canaris against leading nazis did not prevent Canaris being arrested:these files did not exist
2)He was not directly involved in the coup attemps against Hitler (1938-1939),because these coup attempts only existed of talking,and no actions.
3)He did not hindered Hitler from absorping Czechoslowakia in 1939
4)The same for Switserland:Hitler had no intentions to attack Switserland (plans are not the same as intentions)
5) the story of Franco and Canaris is an invention :there are no proofs,Franco would not make his decisions because of interventions by Canaris,and,most important:the non interventionfrom Spain was a very good thing for Germany:Spain only would be an other burden(as Italy) and the capture of Gibraltar was insignifiant .
6)Canaris did not reveal the plans for the attack in the West,or for Sealion (and this was irrelevant,because Sealion was impossible),because he was not privy to the plans .
7)the strength of the British Home Forces had nothing to do with the decision to cancel Sealion,and,the Abwehr had no reliable informatins about the home forces
8)Claiming that Canaris misled Hitler about Anzio is implying that he knew something about Anzio,and this is unproved (btw,in september 1943,the Abwehr already had lost all credit because of its incompetence)
9)Canaris had no role in the war in the east :not about the Soviet strength in 1941,not about the Russian tanks,not about the Russian winteroffensive,not about Uranus,not about Bagration :these were the mission of Fremde Heere Ost (Gehlen) and FHO mostly failed ;the Abwehr had nothing to do with frontespionage .
10)Before and during the war,there was a lot of collaboration between the Abwehr and the SS security services :ex :the roll up of the Red Orchestra was due to the collaboration between Abwehr and Gestapo .
11)Canaris was the not efficient chief of a not efficient spy organisation;the allied spy organisations were not much better .
Source :Heinz Hoehne :Canaris
 
MontyB said:
Care to be a little more specific?

Oh and for the record the Ian Fleming story is an interesting one as well.
Click to expand...
Exactly, it was his idea that lead to the Germans being fooled by "The Man Who Never Was" which saved thousands of lives when the Allies attacked Italy.
 
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