Academic Freedom Bill

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Pete Chagnon - OneNewsNow
4/21/2008 12:00:00 PM




A Florida state senator has drafted a bill that would protect teachers who challenge evolution.



Republican Senator Ronda Storms has drafted the "Academic Freedom" bill, which seeks to protect teachers from being fired or losing tenure if they present alternate theories of origin that challenge evolution. Currently, Storms told CitizenLink, both teachers and students feel "muzzled" from expressing their views in an environment that presents Darwin's theory of evolution "in a dogmatic way." But Associated Press reports that under S.B. 2692, Florida teachers would be able to freely present intelligent design or biblical creationism.

David Gibbs, an attorney with the Florida-based Christian Law Association, says his organization is frequently contacted by teachers who are fearful about losing their jobs when they challenge evolution.

"We are contacted frequently by teachers and school administrators who have either been threatened or, more commonly, are running scared," he explains. Those educators, he says, are asking questions such as: "If I say anything, if I discuss this, what will happen? If a child raised her hand and asked about creationism or intelligent design, a panic went into my heart. How do I even answer this question? Or could this cost me my job?"

When teachers are placed in that position, argues the attorney, "that's really... insanity and a disservice to the students across Florida."

Gibbs admires Senator Storms for drafting the legislation. "So I commend Senator Storms for what she is trying to do, and I believe it's sad that in scientific classrooms we have to look at this type of legislation just to make sure teachers are protected," Gibbs says.

He believes if Florida lawmakers take the bill at face value, the Academic Freedom bill will have no problem becoming law.​
 
No.

We can't do this, because this is America, and we have a seperation of church and state. If you want to be taught creationism, go to a Catholic School.
 
No.

We can't do this, because this is America, and we have a seperation of church and state. If you want to be taught creationism, go to a Catholic School.

I personally believe in creationism, but I don't think it should be taught alone in a public school system. Neither do I think that it shouldn't be able to be mentioned however. We celebrate Christmas and Easter in schools, perhaps we must stop this also, because that is not separation of church and state. There is too much PC crap going on.

I don't believe it said they would teach creationism alone. It said that it could be mentioned, theorized, or shared as the teacher's opinion in class.


This was the part that caught my eye the most,
"If I say anything, if I discuss this, what will happen? If a child raised her hand and asked about creationism or intelligent design, a panic went into my heart. How do I even answer this question? Or could this cost me my job?"
 
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We celebrate Christmas and Easter in schools, perhaps we must stop this also, because that is not separation of church and state.

My school doesn't. They never have since I got there in first grade.

I don't believe it said they would teach creationism alone. It said that it could be mentioned, theorized, or shared as the teacher's opinion in class.
I wouldn't mind a seperate class, as say a Senior in High School would take, with some other Science required to graduate. But I don't want to sit through it in my Science class, and I know people who would get up and leave the room if that came up. And then there's the problem of minority religions. Would there have to be a reincarnaton class too?

There's too much paperwork involved. :read:

"If I say anything, if I discuss this, what will happen? If a child raised her hand and asked about creationism or intelligent design, a panic went into my heart. How do I even answer this question? Or could this cost me my job?"

Tell the student to discuss it with their parents. No harm in that.
 
My school doesn't. They never have since I got there in first grade.


I wouldn't mind a seperate class, as say a Senior in High School would take, with some other Science required to graduate. But I don't want to sit through it in my Science class, and I know people who would get up and leave the room if that came up. And then there's the problem of minority religions. Would there have to be a reincarnaton class too?

There's too much paperwork involved. :read:



Tell the student to discuss it with their parents. No harm in that.

I don't see any reason for that, just point out that it is a religious alternative to evolution and that this is a science class if they want to learn more about creationism ask it in religious studies and get back to work, I don't see any problem in a rudimentary break down of creationism in a science class.

I also agree that schools should offer a non-denominational religions class where people simply learn about the different religions and what defines them hell even I would have taken that one.

On the whole this law suit just looks like another attempt to force religion on people through public schools personally I think religious belief is a personal thing and as such should be taught by the church.



PS. Ever noticed that you never get Atheists knocking on your door to see if you want to lose God?
 
(1)I also agree that schools should offer a non-denominational religions class where people simply learn about the different religions and what defines them hell even I would have taken that one.

(2)PS. Ever noticed that you never get Atheists knocking on your door to see if you want to lose God?
1-Most Middle-European schools offer such courses. But there'd be a fuss by the Super-Christians that we're tolerating Islamic Fundamentalists and forcing it on our students, with would be utter bull, but the media wouldn't care...

2-Yes, I have noticed that.
 
children should hear both sides, then be able to decide for themselves.

Which two sides?

The Nordic Gods theory of creation? the Incan Gods theory of creation? the Wicca theory of creation? the Olympic Gods theory of creation? the Homer Simpson theory of creation? and about a zillion others that have no actual proof to back them up. Or we can just stick to the the most socially accepted and proven scientific fact and leave the religious debate for church.

Here another question, why is America the only Western Country to actually have this debate? In other Christian countries the population would die of laughter at the mere thought of teaching creationism in school.
 
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Here another question, why is America the only Western Country to actually have this debate? In other Christian countries the population would die of laughter at the mere thought of teaching creationism in school.



Probably because the rest of the western world got over religion and found the economy was a more believable method of controlling the masses.

I think Napoleon Bonaparte said it best ..."Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."


 
Probably because the rest of the western world got over religion and found the economy was a more believable method of controlling the masses.

I think Napoleon Bonaparte said it best ..."Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."


Who said - 'Religion is what keeps poor people from killing the government' ?


However, and this is an edit, I believe we would be worse off without it. A tolerant Judeo-Christian ethic is still the best bet. And without it we would surely have chaos. (Like the government being killed).
 
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I disagree as there is nothing in western history to indicate that the Judeo-Christian ethic is responsible stable government in fact it is somewhat the opposite.

The Greek, Egyptian and Roman empires were far from Judeo-Christian entities and they were highly organised, advanced and operated under an almost identical set of rules as todays civilisations in terms of laws and ethics etc.

Compare this with the post Roman period and "golden age" of church rule 500AD-1300AD and you see backward, poorly educated kingdoms, rife with disease and poverty merrily slaughtering each other.

From the 1400s onwards you have seen the decline of rule by clergy and once again you have strong, stable, educated and advanced western nations.

A tolerant Judeo-Christian ethic is still the best bet.

I would argue that the "tolerant" aspect is the most important part of that statement as an intolerant Judeo-Christian ethic is just as bad any other intolerant religious ethic.


However these are my views on religion as a whole and have nothing to do with the question being asked by the original poster so how about a new thread to discuss this topic as I have no desire to derail this thread.
 
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I hate to be such a party-pooper, but didn't all of those empires fall?

Well the Greek and Egyptian Empires were over taken by the Roman Empire and technically the Roman Empire simply fell apart (Oddly enough when it adopted Christianity), my use of the Greek, Roman and Egyptian empires is simply to show that there is a period of roughly 5000 years where the western world was effective led by structured and organised societies not that dissimilar to todays.

But either way we are way off topic so maybe a new thread to avoid the same fate as the "Evolution" thread?
 
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Probably because the rest of the western world got over religion and found the economy was a more believable method of controlling the masses.

I was simply responding to the above, a quote from you, of course, I would remind you.

As for your later posts on religion, which, having said your piece, you have then called off-topic, let me just confirm that I completely disagree with your empire assessments as simplistic and untrue.

However as you cannot avoid being offensive I will pass on your new thread, because to disagree with your important pronouncements would simply bring more personal abuse as usual.

You will therefore benefit from a clear field to air your steady flow of attacks on religion without fear of contradiction. You have before you what you and your like wish for - a onesided view from an unopposed and
inaccurate soap-box.

It is easy to sound good from that position. Get your mirror out, the stage is all yours.

And let me repeat in signing off, I completely oppose your views on this thread, but would have attempted to do so without giving offence. However, if I had then been faced with abuse, as usual, then you certainly would have heard from me in the same vein.

As for de-railing this thread, it always takes more than one remember, but never fear, you will hear no more from me on it, so you have achieved your aim.
 
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Which two sides?

The Nordic Gods theory of creation? the Incan Gods theory of creation? the Wicca theory of creation? the Olympic Gods theory of creation? the Homer Simpson theory of creation? and about a zillion others that have no actual proof to back them up. Or we can just stick to the the most socially accepted and proven scientific fact and leave the religious debate for church.

****Dodges the bait****

Oddly enough this has become my focus of thought, what about the religions that have their own version of creation?
Surely if you are going to teach one version then you open the door to demands that all of them be taught, I think this is evolutions strong point in this discussion as it is non-denominational.

Personally I find it hard to believe that teachers are being fired for discussing creationism but I can see it happening for teaching it.
 
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from being fired or losing tenure if they present alternate theories of origin that challenge evolution

Presenting "alternate theories" is neither teaching creationism nor is it NOT teaching the current curriculum of Darwin's theory.

The bill is designed as thus (as I read it):

If I have a .5-hour block of time to teach evolution in sciences, I can break that up - 15 minutes for Darwin's theory, then contrasting that to a 15-minute explanation of creationism. Or whatever allocation of time/teacher preference works.

That's healthy. I don't believe kids should be taught religion in public schools, but offering alternative views is healthy. Let the conversation turn the direction of the kids' questions. If they want to know more about this whole creation thing, teachers should NOT be afraid of being reprimanded or terminated for discussing it, whether it is their personal belief or not.

The entire purpose of learning is to LEARN. No one learns anything from a single point of view.
 
Who said - 'Religion is what keeps poor people from killing the government' ?
Actually i believe the saying is:"Religion is what keeps poor people from killing the rich" (but it's virtually the same anyway).

Seen on a bumper sticker:
"Sixty percent people waste their lives being atheists, the other thirty percent of people waste their lives being idiots, killing each other, to show who has the better God".
 
If a kid asks, the teacher shouldn't be bound by law not to answer.
If you need a disclaimer by law, for example, a requirement that the teacher say that this is what he/she believes or that this certain idea is out there, then FINE, but let educators do some damn educating.

And as I said Spike, the guys who kill each other and do not tolerate others because of a different faith obviously threw out the most important messages.
It's like a pacifist who kills a virgin every weekend.
 
If a kid asks, the teacher shouldn't be bound by law not to answer.
If you need a disclaimer by law, for example, a requirement that the teacher say that this is what he/she believes or that this certain idea is out there, then FINE, but let educators do some damn educating.

And as I said Spike, the guys who kill each other and do not tolerate others because of a different faith obviously threw out the most important messages.
It's like a pacifist who kills a virgin every weekend.

Great post.
 
Presenting "alternate theories" is neither teaching creationism nor is it NOT teaching the current curriculum of Darwin's theory.

The bill is designed as thus (as I read it):

If I have a .5-hour block of time to teach evolution in sciences, I can break that up - 15 minutes for Darwin's theory, then contrasting that to a 15-minute explanation of creationism. Or whatever allocation of time/teacher preference works.

Does that work both ways?
Given that nothing about creationism is science why should science waste its time on it, it is not a science teachers role to teach Math or English yet they are both integral to the subject why should they spend time on creationism?

For the sake of argument should Evolution be taught in religious studies, will we see equal time being devoted to sex education when Adam and Eve are discussed, sex and inbreeding is after all relevant at this stage.

But seriously do you know how many mickey mouse half arsed theories would be cluttering our education system if this 15 minutes for and against style legislation was adopted?


That's healthy. I don't believe kids should be taught religion in public schools, but offering alternative views is healthy. Let the conversation turn the direction of the kids' questions. If they want to know more about this whole creation thing, teachers should NOT be afraid of being reprimanded or terminated for discussing it, whether it is their personal belief or not.
Fine but as a few people on these forums have mentioned rather than screwing up science classes why not add another class to the syllabus called "Religion studies" that teaches all about the various types of religions equally (its history, beliefs God or gods etc.).


The entire purpose of learning is to LEARN. No one learns anything from a single point of view.
Thats true and here is exactly the problem with this bill whats going to happen when your class room gets a kid that has a different belief set to that of creationism, say Paganism or I assume the Hindu have a different view on the matter etc. do they get equal time?


Actually i believe the saying is:"Religion is what keeps poor people from killing the rich" (but it's virtually the same anyway).

Seen on a bumper sticker:
"Sixty percent people waste their lives being atheists, the other thirty percent of people waste their lives being idiots, killing each other, to show who has the better God".

Bad Spike Bad...

Remember the old maxim "if it looks too good to be true it probably is." trust me it is easier to avoid getting hooked if you don't take the bait.

:)
 
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