Originally Posted by major liability

Once you add the Christian belief to the curriculum, the other religions will want in too.

I feel that schools should stick to "schoolwork" and educate our students ready for the work place. If you want "religion" (or otherwise), do it in your own time.

Personally I feel that no one should be told of religion until they are of an age where they are legally deemed as responsible.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Personally I feel that no one should be told of religion until they are of an age where they are legally deemed as responsible.

More and more families are practicing this now.

And look at the children today. They are rude, ill-mannered brats.

I'm not saying that schools should teach religion, but a teacher shouldn't be afraid to answer a question with their own opinions. Also, if Christmas is celebrated, Easter, etc, then what is the big deal in admitting in a class, "well you should speak to your parents about that, but I believe in creationism."

Now days this isn't allowed, or someone makes a huge deal of it.

Saying all children today are rude, ill-mannered brats is just the same as saying all Christians are intolerant fools.

I agree with senojekips on this one. I remained a Catholic till the age of 11. And the only thing keeping me going since age 7 was the threat of ETERNAL DAMNATION drilled into my head since birth, because I sure didn't enjoy going to Church at all. Fortunately my parents aren't devout in the least or I'd still have my religious facade up. Nowadays it is reserved for the grandparents...

Pixie, Neither of my children were never indoctrinated with any religious expectations, however they have both turned out to be responsible adults. Both got very good reports regarding their behaviour at school. (a lot better than their father did).

Religion and good behaviour are not necessarily related in any way. Children's behaviour is mainly the result of knowing what their parents will allow. Once rules are made their are almost no exceptions and they know better than to question the rules. The constant attempts of Christians to grab the high moral ground on issues such as this is another of my dislikes, as I feel that most of them are not worthy. Do they think that bad the "bad" kids all belong to atheists and agnostics? There are poor Christian parents just as there are poor whatever else parents.

Anyway most of the credit for the behaviour of my children is due to their mother who is, if anything tougher than I am regarding manners and behaviour, as I spent most of my working life away from home for 3 - 12 months at a time. Both Shirl and I share the same views, and support one another's decisions. If we have differing views on a matter the kids never found out about it , it was discussed privately.

Originally Posted by major liability

Saying all children today are rude, ill-mannered brats is just the same as saying all Christians are intolerant fools.

I sure didn't enjoy going to Church at all.

I did not say all children are rude and ill-mannered brats. I'm sorry if it came off that way.

I said more and more families are adopting the views of non-religion, and in many cases (not all, but many) that means the child has little or no supervision or boundaries. That is in my [viewed] experiences. (That is not saying children raised in a religious family are any better or worse, I'm just saying that since America has thrown Christianity to the winds the raising of children seems to be lacking and their behavior in turn has gotten much worse. Obviously I don't know that because I wasn't raised 50-80 years ago, but I am well aware of how my parents, and grandparents were raised etc...).

I haven't enjoyed going to church for a very long time.

I can do without the fake handshaking. I can do without the hands uplifting and fake cries of "AMEN" from people. And I can certainly do without my Pastor.

People think they'll find God in church, but that is only a very small part. He's in the kindness around you. IMHO.



Which is kind of why I wonder why it's such a big deal if Christianity is mentioned in school. This country was founded on Christian beliefs, and for religious tolerance. Religious tolerance doesn't mean a Christian needs to cover their faith up and be silent, nor does it mean we have to cater to other religious beliefs. It just means to be tolerant of them.

Originally Posted by senojekips

...children were never indoctrinated with any religious expectations...

Perhaps, but they didn't have a choice about having religion either, did they?

A child feeds off what a parent says, and a comment here or there about "those types" (i.e. Christians) goes a long way in a mind of a child. And they remember it. Will they ever really have an unbiased view of Christianity to 'choose' whether they want it when they get older? Chances are slim.

P.S. I am aware this is thin ice I'm treading on, I don't mean any of this in an attacking manner

I think the decline in the quality of parenting has a lot to do with the fact that it's impossible to raise a family on one person's income these days unless you have a great job. So the parents are absent, and the kids are raised by day cares and television. You know, I think it was intentionally set up this way... helps to get rid of the family unit if you want a nation of dependent consumers.

Originally Posted by major liability

I think the decline in the quality of parenting has a lot to do with the fact that it's impossible to raise a family on one person's income these days unless you have a great job. So the parents are absent, and the kids are raised by day cares and television. You know, I think it was intentionally set up this way... helps to get rid of the family unit if you want a nation of dependent consumers.

I agree completely but I also think the problem has been exasperated by an abandonment of personal responsibility/accountability, there are far to many parents willing to and being allowed to abdicate their responsibilities to government, schools and other institutions.

Originally Posted by pixiedustboo

Perhaps, but they didn't have a choice about having religion either, did they?

A child feeds off what a parent says, and a comment here or there about "those types" (i.e. Christians) goes a long way in a mind of a child. And they remember it. Will they ever really have an unbiased view of Christianity to 'choose' whether they want it when they get older? Chances are slim.

P.S. I am aware this is thin ice I'm treading on, I don't mean any of this in an attacking manner

Pixie, you are on extremely safe ground. I have no problems whatsoever with you or anyone else having your own beliefs, what I object to are those who cannot discuss the matter sensibly, yet they insist on being part of the discussion, if for no other reason than to destroy it if it does not go their way.

Regarding my children's choice, they were never told anything,.... neither for, nor against religion. We left them to make up their own minds. My daughter married a Catholic and I have no objections, in fact the question was never raised. My children are well adjusted enough to make up their own minds regarding what they wish to do with their lives and they know that I respect their choices because of this.

Their views are unbiased because we gave them the chance to grow up that way, unlike those who pack their kids off to Sunday School because they were made to go, (It will be good for them). That is the whole point of an early religious schooling, to brainwash children before they are old enough to know better.

Only when they were old enough to make responsible decisions did the question ever arise. I'll guarantee neither of my "kids" (31 and 34) could even tell you what my opinion of religion is. They are aware that I don't go to church but that is about all.

There is a well known Jesuit saying, "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man". Why before seven you ask? Well,... in Australia, seven years of age is the age of accountability, before which, a child has no legal responsibility whatsoever, because it is deemed that his brain and body is not mature enough to know better.

Originally Posted by senojekips

what I object to are those who cannot discuss the matter sensibly, yet they insist on being part of the discussion, if for no other reason than to destroy it if it does not go their way.

Like to say to whom you refer? Why not be a man and face up?

I reckon you just cannot bear opposition. Don't hide behind others. If you mean me, I am always prepared to argue the point face to face, and i have never felt one going against me, thank you. I understand that it is always good to have two points of view, that is why i never attack other's beliefs, simply defend the ones I feel I should, and that is not because of my personal position but on behalf of those I wish to support against unfair treatment at the hands of those who would throw their weight around. The old school bullies back in action, you understand.

Originally Posted by major liability

I think the decline in the quality of parenting has a lot to do with the fact that it's impossible to raise a family on one person's income these days unless you have a great job. So the parents are absent, and the kids are raised by day cares and television. You know, I think it was intentionally set up this way... helps to get rid of the family unit if you want a nation of dependent consumers.

What you say might well be true, but I feel that it is deeper than that. There seems to have been a great change in people's expectations in particularly the last thirty years. In the day of my parents, they got married and being ordinary working class people, they never expected to be able to own their own home, most people in their circumstances usually rented their house. By my generation came along it was far better with virtually all of us expecting to own our own homes with a little hard work.

I may be wrong, but to me it seems that about 20 - 30 years ago most young adults not only expected to own their own home, they expected to own a home as good or better than that of their parents immediately and the banks were quite willing to loan them the money to do it.

This is what led to the situation where both parents ended up having to work to service the loans that they had taken out to live the lifestyle of their choice. Now this is not all bad, as it shows that kids of today are willing to work, but the cost comes in parenting, and other social problems generated by this change in the way we raise our children.

Both of my kids have homes better than my wife and I live in, my daughter and son in law paid their house of completely in seven years and are now building a second story on top, which they estimate they will raise the money for in two years. The result being that they both work and as yet have no children which I think is a great shame.

It was overheard by my wife when talking to an acquaintance about children, "I'll be glad when they go to school and the teachers can teach them to behave"..... I'm not saying all young parents are this way but there is definitely a change in the way children of today are being raised.