20 years since Rainbow warrior sinking - Page 2




 
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Boots
 
July 8th, 2005  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chewie_nz
if france wanted to test a nuke....why not do it in france? south pacific is OUR back yard.

While I dont really want to get involved in this argument but I guess I will.

I actually agree with France on this one, as far as they are concerned they did test their weapons in France as the territories they used are under French control, as much as I dont like it I believe they are correct.

As far as the Frenjch agents captured goes I am somewhat disappointed we didnt simply have a trial find them guilty and then shoot them and at the same time blowing a couple of legs of the Eifel tower under the excuse of counter terrorism or just a general dislike of ugly buildings.



Whispering Death wrote:
Quote:
Well, seriously speaking, I understand the position of NZ getting a little pissed about nuclear weapons being detonated in their backyard is understandable.

As far as this particular act is concerned, I like the symbol that sinking that ship sends, but it's really really really sad that 12 people where killed. Sad You'd really think they could have sent her to the bottom in a slower manner so that all the civies could make it to the life boats.

Umm only one guy was killed, Fernando Pereira.
I personally think the best way to have handled it was to have allowed them to sail waited until they entered the French waters around the atol and arrested them impounding the boat, as it is the French ended up paying for the Rainbow Warrior 2 a much larger and brand new boat.

http://archive.greenpeace.org/comms/rw/pkbomb.html
July 9th, 2005  
SHERMAN
 
 
take it easy guys....


Either way I have to say that you cant just blow peoples boats out of the water like that, it would have been much better to arrest them.

Quote:
heres a thought for you, the NZ govt send two navy frigates with greenpeace....why didn't the french take them on?
Probably because of world opinion...Not because they are afraid of the NZ Fleet(with due respect).
July 9th, 2005  
Italian Guy
 
 
I'm not a big fan of enviromentalists but if it helps the cause of bashing the French then yeah Greenpeace is a noble organization.
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Boots
July 10th, 2005  
Damien435
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chewie_nz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien435
It is unfortunate that that someone died but I support the French in this case. From what I have seen Greenpeace commit's acts that border on terrorism, putting their own lives an the lives of those they are protesting. (Sending boats through an area of sea that is being used for the test firing of a Triton missile, ramming a Coast Guard vessel while interfering with the Native's sacred right to hunt for whales just as their for father's did, putting ships into the possible fall out of a nuclear test, etc.) IMO this is not a terrorist act because the goal was not to kill innocent civilians in an effort to push a political agenda, now if the French had meant to kill the crew that would be different, but from what I have read this was an un-intended death. But to be honest, if my government had done this I would probably say "got what they deserved, those two were only following orders and should not have been punished" but it is so much easier to be less biased when your country (for once) is no the one being blamed.
OK you have a couple of misconceptions here, first of all that a terrorist attack HAS to kill civillians...they dont, they have to cause TERROR, hence the name. secondly this was an attack by one nations military against civilians...PEACE ACTIVISTS no less...in what up world is that ever OK?

honestly i think you are talking without even having the base knowlage to form a proper opinion on what happened here. do some research

h**l, have a look at what was posted last time the rainbow warrior was mentioned here
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum...+rainbow#98162
Peace activists? Is that was ramming jet skies into coast guard boats is? Peaceful? Sending boats through an area of sea where the US Navy is conducting underwater missile firing exercises in their own territorial waters? How far is too far? To me Greenpeace goes to far, and if they had things there way we would all be kissing ass to the commies right now.
July 10th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
can you actually provide a link to the story you guys seem to be talking about? i want to know what you guys are talking about before i make comment


also it seems we are talking past each other, i am mentioning the anniversary of an act of state sponsered terrorism in New Zealand waters. this was the end of a situation where greenpece was 100% in the right, in fact backed up by the Aust & NZ govts, plus numerous pacific island nations.

i'm not saying that greenpeace is blamless on all things (far from it) but as i have stated before, on the issue of whaling and on nuclear testing/weapons i am behind them 110%
July 10th, 2005  
Bory
 
 
I'm with you on that Chewie.

You can ask anyone, I'm far from a tree huger, (In fact I own a chainsaw, put that's beside the point)

The point is, as I said ealier, if the french desperatly wanted to stop the Greenies, find a clever way of doing it.
it isn't extremly hard for some one to come up with a way to distract them or humiliate them.

Plus, I'm not to happy having the French play with their big toys in my backyard. Or, the Brits testing Nukes on the Mainland at Maralinga. There were still Aboriginal settlements in the area during the testing. None have Modern Medical treatments or support, most haven't been offically notified of the Nuke testing.
They beleived, and I do not joke on this, that the Sky Spirits were warring. And that was what, 50 years ago, were the French going to help the Islanders in the 80's, no way.
July 11th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
Mitterrand 'gave approval' for Warrior attack
11 July 2005
By LOUISE BLEAKLEY and AGENCIES

Greenpeace New Zealand is unsurprised by revelations in the French newspaper Le Monde that the attack on the Rainbow Warrior 20 years ago was done with the "personal authorisation" of France's late president, Francois Mitterrand.


Le Monde newspaper published extracts in its Saturday edition of a 1986 account written by Pierre Lacoste, the former head of France's DGSE foreign intelligence service, giving the clearest demonstration yet of Mitterrand's direct involvement in the sinking of the campaign vessel on July 10, 1995.

Portuguese photographer Fernando Pereira was killed in the attack, and yesterday his daughter, Marelle, joined members of the original crew and police investigators at a ceremony at Matauri Bay to mark the bombing.

The Rainbow Warrior was leading Greenpeace's campaign against French nuclear tests on the Mururoa Atoll in the Pacific when two explosions on the Warrior rocked Auckland's Waitemata Harbour.

Two French agents were later tried and imprisoned for blowing up the ship.

They began their sentences in New Zealand, but were later transferred to a military base in French Polynesia and were released within three years of the attack.

Mitterrand's involvement had been suspected from day one, Greenpeace New Zealand campaign manager Cindy Baxter said yesterday.

"(The president) was determined to go ahead with those tests," she said.

Uncovering Mitterrand's involvement had taken over two decades because of efforts by French authorities to cover it up.

"It takes the French media 20 years to discover who put their name to the bombs," Baxter said.

"The French would rather the whole thing had gone away."

The same newspaper that uncovered Mitterrand's role in the plot was also responsible for proving French agencies planned the dangerous operation 20 years ago.

Baxter said despite the strong evidence linking top French leaders with the bombing, no-one had yet apologised to Greenpeace.

In Le Monde, Lacoste wrote that he "would not have launched such an operation without the personal authorisation of the President of the Republic".

"I asked the president if he gave me permission to put into action the neutralisation plan that I had studied on the request of Monsieur (Charles) Hernu," Lacoste said.

Hernu was defence minister at the time. "He gave me his agreement while stressing the importance he placed on the nuclear tests," Lacoste said.

"I didn't go into greater detail on the plan as the authorisation was explicit enough."

At yesterday's commemorations, Greenpeace France disarmament campaigner Xavier Renou called on his Government to get rid of its nuclear weapons.

"France is currently using the data gathered from nuclear tests in Mururoa during the '80s and '90s to upgrade its nuclear weapons systems, flying in the face of its international commitments to disarm," he said.

"Hypocrisy is the real driver of nuclear proliferation."

Original Warrior skipper Pete Willcox dived down 25m to the wreck and placed a memorial sculpture on the bridge.

The present Rainbow Warrior, with a banner reading "NZ: proud to be nuclear free," was joined by several other vessels in the bay.

Crew member Steve Sawyer, whose birthday was being celebrated on the night of the bombing, urged world leaders to stop spending money and intelligence on more sophisticated nuclear weapons and to promote peace, combat climate change and preserve the world's forests and oceans.

Greenpeace New Zealand executive director Margaret Crozier noted that 20 years later New Zealanders remained firm in their commitment to being nuclear free

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepres...7a6530,00.html
July 11th, 2005  
DTop
 
 
Quote:
NZ: Former French PM admits Warrior bombing a shambles

Nearly 20 years after the bombing of the Greenpeace boat Rainbow Warrior, a former French Prime Minister has admitted the operation was a shambles. Laurent Fabius has told a New Zealand documentary team it was the country's Defence Minister who ordered the bombing and then lied about his involvement. Two French secret service agents spent a brief time in jail for manslaughter but those further up the chain have never been brought to justice.
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/pac...s/s1402090.htm
July 14th, 2005  
Damien435
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chewie_nz
OK you have a couple of misconceptions here, first of all that a terrorist attack HAS to kill civillians...they dont, they have to cause TERROR, hence the name. secondly this was an attack by one nations military against civilians...PEACE ACTIVISTS no less...in what up world is that ever OK?

honestly i think you are talking without even having the base knowlage to form a proper opinion on what happened here. do some research

h**l, have a look at what was posted last time the rainbow warrior was mentioned here
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum...+rainbow#98162
First off, I apologize if I was misleading in suggesting that terrorist attacks must result in at least one death to become a terrorist attack. What I meant was that this attack had an immediate strategic significance and that was to stop the Rainbow Warrior from participating in protests against French Nuclear Testing, not trying to intimidate Greenpeace from ever again protesting again.

Second, it appears to me that the French tried to prevent any casualties, I have no evidence for this but from reading the initial post in this topic I was of the opinion that the first blast was smaller than the second, giving the people on board a chance to abandon ship before the larger blast meant to actually sink the ship.

And lastly, you are god damn right, I do not have enough "base knowledge to form a proper opinion" (all though the last term there does seem a little hypocritical). Up till you made this topic I had never heard of the Rainbow Warrior, the closest would be some sort of gay comic hero fighting the conservatives to protect the rights of gays in the US. And I am not going to do any research, you want to know why? Because I don't give a damn about this. One guy died, big deal, thousands of people die everyday, why is this guy a special case? Because he is a peace activist? So what, commies, hippies, peace activists, I hate em all. (Mainly because they all ignore human nature in their actions and ideologies.) If the governments of New Zealand, Australia and all these other Pacific Island Nations were so distress by nuclear in their "backyard" (That is a big ass backyard btw.) why didn't try to do something about it?
July 14th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
ok matey,

if you dont know about a topic....at least TRY to find out about it before commenting on it, because you come off as an ass.

secondly the NZ and Aust governmants DID do something about it...the navy frigates canterbury and otago were PART of the greenpeace anti nuke flotilla.

it doesn't matter if the french TRIED to prevent deaths/casualties...IT SHOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED.

as for the backyard...i would consider that the territoral waters around the pacific island nations would quite easily be considered their concern. thats why they asked for help from their neibours (NZ & australia).

and this is because you cant even be bothered doing some basic reasearch;

Quote:
french forces attacked a civilian ship in soviegn country.
they (the French) were testing nukes atmospherically (which had been banned by international treaty at that time)

it wasn't just greenpeace protesting...the NZ and Australian navy was present as well. i notice that french commando's didn't take a shot at the HMNZS Canterbury or HMNZS Otago. the flotilla was in international waters.

also, what trade was being impeded? can't imagine that there was alot of tourism at muaroa.





***edit***
as a side note, the distance between paris and new caladonia (the closest spot i could find to muaroa) is;

16730.76 KM
10396.01 Miles
9033.88 Nautical Miles

yet only 1814.16 KM from auckland, new zealand. THAT'S why we got involved