17 september 1939 - Page 9




 
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May 28th, 2010  
FUNeral
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naddođur
The most important features of the Polish contribution to the defeat of Germany are determination and perseverance. Despite the severe defeat in 1939, the Poles formed five more armies, including four in exile: in France in 1939, in the United Kingdom in the summer of 1940 (after the defeat and capitulation of France), and twice in the USSR in 1941. These were the army of Gen. Anders that fought later in the South of Europe, and the one that emerged in 1943 and later fought at the Red Army’s side. The fifth Polish army, created at the end of September of 1939 was the conspiratorial armed force in the occupied territory. For the entire period of the war there also existed the very important “silent front” – the intelligence. Probably up to 2 millions Poles served since September 1st, 1939 to May 8th, 1945 in all the Polish military formations – regular armies, partisan troops and underground forces. In the final stage of war the Polish troops on all the European fronts amounted to some 600 000 soldiers (infantry, armored troops, air force and navy). In the summer of 1944, while commencing regular military struggle against the retreating Germans, the armed underground numbered more than 300 thousands sworn soldiers. It can be concluded that Poland put in the field the fourth greatest Allied army.

"The soul of Poland is indestructible, and she will rise again like rock which may for a spell be submerged by a tidal wave, but which remains a rock."
(WINSTON CHURCHILL, 1.10.1939)
Ok, ok thats nice. You dont have to prove me that Im wrong. When I say "West" I mean the general public, not single countries, or individuals. My point was: People should do thier own reaserch if they wish to know truth, cause media will always bend the truth one way or another. And whats more, they should keep thier minds open to all possibilities not only the convenient ones. Theres no such a thing as just war, or the just side in conflict.
Im sorry that I butt into this thread... with random remarks. I just dont feel like doing some serch/copy/paste/flame war here (not that I have any sources to back up my random remarks, its just what I think).
May 28th, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUNeral
Please chill out a bit Panzer. Most guys just simply buy nazi/communist propaganda, about Poland being backward, worthless nation of barbarians. They dont give a damn. Every country did some wrong back then. Same goes for Poland I suppose. But in the west allies are seen as heroes, riding on white horse to kill nazi dragon. It reminds me of communist propaganda, before 1989. Same thing happens everywhere, just in different ways. I find it kinda sad.
This is not a question of ignorance.

LeeEnfield tries to bend the argument to fit the Western propaganda which attempts to cover up the extent of treason commited upon Poland by the West but lljdaw is another cookie alltogether, the guy parrots neonazi revisionist arguments word for word, thats more then stupidity its malevolence born out of pro-nazi sympathies.

He even provided a neonazi forum as his fact finding source.
May 29th, 2010  
FUNeral
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
This is not a question of ignorance.

LeeEnfield tries to bend the argument to fit the Western propaganda which attempts to cover up the extent of treason commited upon Poland by the West but lljdaw is another cookie alltogether, the guy parrots neonazi revisionist arguments word for word, thats more then stupidity its malevolence born out of pro-nazi sympathies.

He even provided a neonazi forum as his fact finding source.
Well, some people do trust everything posted on the internet. And they seem to have fun quoting unreliable sources. I doubt he knew it was a neo-nazi forum. He just wanted to find something that confirms his view. I call this kind of people copy/paste warriors. If you try to fight them, they will flood you with useless links, quotes, and texts written by nameless authors. Do you think its possible to reason with that?
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May 29th, 2010  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
This is not a question of ignorance.

LeeEnfield tries to bend the argument to fit the Western propaganda which attempts to cover up the extent of treason commited upon Poland by the West but lljdaw is another cookie alltogether, the guy parrots neonazi revisionist arguments word for word, thats more then stupidity its malevolence born out of pro-nazi sympathies.

He even provided a neonazi forum as his fact finding source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUNeral
Well, some people do trust everything posted on the internet. And they seem to have fun quoting unreliable sources. I doubt he knew it was a neo-nazi forum. He just wanted to find something that confirms his view. I call this kind of people copy/paste warriors. If you try to fight them, they will flood you with useless links, quotes, and texts written by nameless authors. Do you think its possible to reason with that?
I am sure this mutual fanfest is great and very touching but here is the simple reality, there was next to nothing that Britain nor France could have done to aid Poland as they were not prepared for war (I am sure we all know that it takes more than a gun and uniform to make a soldier) they had been through WW1 and did not have the either the moral or political will to want to go through it again.

The idea that the BEF could have gone to Poland instead of France is pure fantasy and even if the Royal Navy could have got them there they sure as hell could not have got them home again as they did at Dunkirk and there was nothing on earth that the BEF could have done once there especially once the Russians entered as they could not have been resupplied and for the most part they were fighting the wrong war.

The hope was that an alliance and assurances to Poland would be enough to deter Germany while Britain and France got their **** together but the second Germany and Russia crossed the border Poland was f**ked and having the BEF there probably would have cost Britain its war as well.

So please jump off your high horses and start looking at the realities of situation that everyone faced, it doesnt matter if the entire western front was guarded by 1 German geriatric with a pitchfork and a Dachshund neither France nor Britain had the means or will at their disposal to carry out a long term military campaign at that time.
May 30th, 2010  
fuser
 
 
Polish Government acted foolishly before and during the german invasion....
They were fanatic anti soviet and they themselves were an aggressive nation that took part in the partition of Czechoslovakia and took a part of it........

First of all It refused to accept soviet help in case of german invasion or to allow soviet troops through her terriotory in case invasion occurs in west..

USSR didn't invaded poland and everyone at that time knew it.... Only during cold war people were told that it was invaded by ussr.......
May 30th, 2010  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuser
Polish Government acted foolishly before and during the german invasion....
They were fanatic anti soviet and they themselves were an aggressive nation that took part in the partition of Czechoslovakia and took a part of it........

First of all It refused to accept soviet help in case of german invasion or to allow soviet troops through her terriotory in case invasion occurs in west..

USSR didn't invaded poland and everyone at that time knew it.... Only during cold war people were told that it was invaded by ussr.......
to quote some one:that's only parroting communist propaganda :the Su joined Germany in a third partition of Poland,occupied the Baltic states,attacked Finland .....
If they were anti soviet,they had all reasons for it .
May 30th, 2010  
FUNeral
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I am sure this mutual fanfest is great and very touching but here is the simple reality, there was next to nothing that Britain nor France could have done to aid Poland as they were not prepared for war (I am sure we all know that it takes more than a gun and uniform to make a soldier) they had been through WW1 and did not have the either the moral or political will to want to go through it again.

The idea that the BEF could have gone to Poland instead of France is pure fantasy and even if the Royal Navy could have got them there they sure as hell could not have got them home again as they did at Dunkirk and there was nothing on earth that the BEF could have done once there especially once the Russians entered as they could not have been resupplied and for the most part they were fighting the wrong war.

The hope was that an alliance and assurances to Poland would be enough to deter Germany while Britain and France got their **** together but the second Germany and Russia crossed the border Poland was f**ked and having the BEF there probably would have cost Britain its war as well.

So please jump off your high horses and start looking at the realities of situation that everyone faced, it doesnt matter if the entire western front was guarded by 1 German geriatric with a pitchfork and a Dachshund neither France nor Britain had the means or will at their disposal to carry out a long term military campaign at that time.
And now I see some progress. Allies were not ready for war. And I also think that direct help for Poland was impossible. But the fact that they were not ready can be seen as betrayal. They were supposed to be ready. Thats what they promised. And you just agreed with me. Except you dont see it as backstabbing. But alter ur perspective a little bit, and you should understand why we think it was not something GB & France should be proud of. Cheers.
May 30th, 2010  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUNeral
And now I see some progress. Allies were not ready for war. And I also think that direct help for Poland was impossible. But the fact that they were not ready can be seen as betrayal. They were supposed to be ready. Thats what they promised. And you just agreed with me. Except you dont see it as backstabbing. But alter ur perspective a little bit, and you should understand why we think it was not something GB & France should be proud of. Cheers.
of course,it was not something GB and France should be proud of ;no body did claim this .
May 30th, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I am sure this mutual fanfest is great and very touching but here is the simple reality, there was next to nothing that Britain nor France could have done to aid Poland as they were not prepared for war (I am sure we all know that it takes more than a gun and uniform to make a soldier)
So 1500 tanks, 300 armored cars and 500 thousand soldiers amassed in Saar was what?

Also why didnt they prepare? A few months was long enough for Poland which had much less money and resources to prepare for a defence that puts anything outside Russia to shame yet you claim rich and powerfull countries like UK and France could not prepare?

Facts is there was no will or intention of aiding Poland and the treaties were pure words and ink.

Also France did have the means for months ahead of September, the 500 thousand men with all the juice means much more when we realise that the western german border was defended by a bunch of guys with pitchforks.

Humor me Monty, less assume that when Poland launches the Bzura offensive (of which France and UK was perfectly aware) France invades Germany pushing for Berlin.

BEF going to Poland prior to war pure fantasy? Why?
May 30th, 2010  
mkenny
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
Facts is there was no will or intention of aiding Poland and the treaties were pure words and ink.
If so then why declare war on Germany?
Both Britain and France had a number of opportunities to 'opt-out' of their treaty obligations prior to declaring war but they did not.
They drew a line in the sand, Hitler crossed it. War ensued. This shows all the claims they had 'no intention' of honouring the treaty are bunk.