17 september 1939

The most important features of the Polish contribution to the defeat of Germany are determination and perseverance. Despite the severe defeat in 1939, the Poles formed five more armies, including four in exile: in France in 1939, in the United Kingdom in the summer of 1940 (after the defeat and capitulation of France), and twice in the USSR in 1941. These were the army of Gen. Anders that fought later in the South of Europe, and the one that emerged in 1943 and later fought at the Red Army’s side. The fifth Polish army, created at the end of September of 1939 was the conspiratorial armed force in the occupied territory. For the entire period of the war there also existed the very important “silent front” – the intelligence. Probably up to 2 millions Poles served since September 1st, 1939 to May 8th, 1945 in all the Polish military formations – regular armies, partisan troops and underground forces. In the final stage of war the Polish troops on all the European fronts amounted to some 600 000 soldiers (infantry, armored troops, air force and navy). In the summer of 1944, while commencing regular military struggle against the retreating Germans, the armed underground numbered more than 300 thousands sworn soldiers. It can be concluded that Poland put in the field the fourth greatest Allied army.

"The soul of Poland is indestructible, and she will rise again like rock which may for a spell be submerged by a tidal wave, but which remains a rock."
(WINSTON CHURCHILL, 1.10.1939)

Ok, ok thats nice. You dont have to prove me that Im wrong. When I say "West" I mean the general public, not single countries, or individuals. My point was: People should do thier own reaserch if they wish to know truth, cause media will always bend the truth one way or another. And whats more, they should keep thier minds open to all possibilities not only the convenient ones. Theres no such a thing as just war, or the just side in conflict.
Im sorry that I butt into this thread... with random remarks. I just dont feel like doing some serch/copy/paste/flame war here (not that I have any sources to back up my random remarks, its just what I think).
 
Please chill out a bit Panzer. Most guys just simply buy nazi/communist propaganda, about Poland being backward, worthless nation of barbarians. They dont give a damn. Every country did some wrong back then. Same goes for Poland I suppose. But in the west allies are seen as heroes, riding on white horse to kill nazi dragon. It reminds me of communist propaganda, before 1989. Same thing happens everywhere, just in different ways. I find it kinda sad.
This is not a question of ignorance.

LeeEnfield tries to bend the argument to fit the Western propaganda which attempts to cover up the extent of treason commited upon Poland by the West but lljdaw is another cookie alltogether, the guy parrots neonazi revisionist arguments word for word, thats more then stupidity its malevolence born out of pro-nazi sympathies.

He even provided a neonazi forum as his fact finding source.
 
This is not a question of ignorance.

LeeEnfield tries to bend the argument to fit the Western propaganda which attempts to cover up the extent of treason commited upon Poland by the West but lljdaw is another cookie alltogether, the guy parrots neonazi revisionist arguments word for word, thats more then stupidity its malevolence born out of pro-nazi sympathies.

He even provided a neonazi forum as his fact finding source.

Well, some people do trust everything posted on the internet. And they seem to have fun quoting unreliable sources. I doubt he knew it was a neo-nazi forum. He just wanted to find something that confirms his view. I call this kind of people copy/paste warriors. If you try to fight them, they will flood you with useless links, quotes, and texts written by nameless authors. Do you think its possible to reason with that?
 
This is not a question of ignorance.

LeeEnfield tries to bend the argument to fit the Western propaganda which attempts to cover up the extent of treason commited upon Poland by the West but lljdaw is another cookie alltogether, the guy parrots neonazi revisionist arguments word for word, thats more then stupidity its malevolence born out of pro-nazi sympathies.

He even provided a neonazi forum as his fact finding source.

Well, some people do trust everything posted on the internet. And they seem to have fun quoting unreliable sources. I doubt he knew it was a neo-nazi forum. He just wanted to find something that confirms his view. I call this kind of people copy/paste warriors. If you try to fight them, they will flood you with useless links, quotes, and texts written by nameless authors. Do you think its possible to reason with that?

I am sure this mutual fanfest is great and very touching but here is the simple reality, there was next to nothing that Britain nor France could have done to aid Poland as they were not prepared for war (I am sure we all know that it takes more than a gun and uniform to make a soldier) they had been through WW1 and did not have the either the moral or political will to want to go through it again.

The idea that the BEF could have gone to Poland instead of France is pure fantasy and even if the Royal Navy could have got them there they sure as hell could not have got them home again as they did at Dunkirk and there was nothing on earth that the BEF could have done once there especially once the Russians entered as they could not have been resupplied and for the most part they were fighting the wrong war.

The hope was that an alliance and assurances to Poland would be enough to deter Germany while Britain and France got their **** together but the second Germany and Russia crossed the border Poland was f**ked and having the BEF there probably would have cost Britain its war as well.

So please jump off your high horses and start looking at the realities of situation that everyone faced, it doesnt matter if the entire western front was guarded by 1 German geriatric with a pitchfork and a Dachshund neither France nor Britain had the means or will at their disposal to carry out a long term military campaign at that time.
 
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Polish Government acted foolishly before and during the german invasion....
They were fanatic anti soviet and they themselves were an aggressive nation that took part in the partition of Czechoslovakia and took a part of it........

First of all It refused to accept soviet help in case of german invasion or to allow soviet troops through her terriotory in case invasion occurs in west..

USSR didn't invaded poland and everyone at that time knew it.... Only during cold war people were told that it was invaded by ussr.......
 
Polish Government acted foolishly before and during the german invasion....
They were fanatic anti soviet and they themselves were an aggressive nation that took part in the partition of Czechoslovakia and took a part of it........

First of all It refused to accept soviet help in case of german invasion or to allow soviet troops through her terriotory in case invasion occurs in west..

USSR didn't invaded poland and everyone at that time knew it.... Only during cold war people were told that it was invaded by ussr.......
to quote some one:mad::that's only parroting communist propaganda :the Su joined Germany in a third partition of Poland,occupied the Baltic states,attacked Finland .....
If they were anti soviet,they had all reasons for it .
 
I am sure this mutual fanfest is great and very touching but here is the simple reality, there was next to nothing that Britain nor France could have done to aid Poland as they were not prepared for war (I am sure we all know that it takes more than a gun and uniform to make a soldier) they had been through WW1 and did not have the either the moral or political will to want to go through it again.

The idea that the BEF could have gone to Poland instead of France is pure fantasy and even if the Royal Navy could have got them there they sure as hell could not have got them home again as they did at Dunkirk and there was nothing on earth that the BEF could have done once there especially once the Russians entered as they could not have been resupplied and for the most part they were fighting the wrong war.

The hope was that an alliance and assurances to Poland would be enough to deter Germany while Britain and France got their **** together but the second Germany and Russia crossed the border Poland was f**ked and having the BEF there probably would have cost Britain its war as well.

So please jump off your high horses and start looking at the realities of situation that everyone faced, it doesnt matter if the entire western front was guarded by 1 German geriatric with a pitchfork and a Dachshund neither France nor Britain had the means or will at their disposal to carry out a long term military campaign at that time.

And now I see some progress. Allies were not ready for war. And I also think that direct help for Poland was impossible. But the fact that they were not ready can be seen as betrayal. They were supposed to be ready. Thats what they promised. And you just agreed with me. Except you dont see it as backstabbing. But alter ur perspective a little bit, and you should understand why we think it was not something GB & France should be proud of. Cheers.
 
And now I see some progress. Allies were not ready for war. And I also think that direct help for Poland was impossible. But the fact that they were not ready can be seen as betrayal. They were supposed to be ready. Thats what they promised. And you just agreed with me. Except you dont see it as backstabbing. But alter ur perspective a little bit, and you should understand why we think it was not something GB & France should be proud of. Cheers.
of course,it was not something GB and France should be proud of ;no body did claim this .
 
I am sure this mutual fanfest is great and very touching but here is the simple reality, there was next to nothing that Britain nor France could have done to aid Poland as they were not prepared for war (I am sure we all know that it takes more than a gun and uniform to make a soldier)
So 1500 tanks, 300 armored cars and 500 thousand soldiers amassed in Saar was what?

Also why didnt they prepare? A few months was long enough for Poland which had much less money and resources to prepare for a defence that puts anything outside Russia to shame yet you claim rich and powerfull countries like UK and France could not prepare?

Facts is there was no will or intention of aiding Poland and the treaties were pure words and ink.

Also France did have the means for months ahead of September, the 500 thousand men with all the juice means much more when we realise that the western german border was defended by a bunch of guys with pitchforks.

Humor me Monty, less assume that when Poland launches the Bzura offensive (of which France and UK was perfectly aware) France invades Germany pushing for Berlin.

BEF going to Poland prior to war pure fantasy? Why?
 
Facts is there was no will or intention of aiding Poland and the treaties were pure words and ink.

If so then why declare war on Germany?
Both Britain and France had a number of opportunities to 'opt-out' of their treaty obligations prior to declaring war but they did not.
They drew a line in the sand, Hitler crossed it. War ensued. This shows all the claims they had 'no intention' of honouring the treaty are bunk.
 
If so then why declare war on Germany?
Both Britain and France had a number of opportunities to 'opt-out' of their treaty obligations prior to declaring war but they did not.
They drew a line in the sand, Hitler crossed it. War ensued. This shows all the claims they had 'no intention' of honouring the treaty are bunk.
They declared war but did not engage in combat untill invaded, they refused to fight.

Declarations alone do not change the nature of their treason, if you're in an alliance you fight, France and UK did not untill the fight came to them.
 
They declared war but did not engage in combat untill invaded, they refused to fight.

I think you will find that 'combat' was engaged well before May 10th 1944.



Declarations alone do not change the nature of their treason, if you're in an alliance you fight,

Treason? You certainly are an excitable fellow.
Please quote the promises in the gaurantee given to Poland where a specific act of agression is made in relation to a ground offensive into Germany.

France and UK did not untill the fight came to them.
I think you are confusing France and The UK with the United States.
 
I think you will find that 'combat' was engaged well before May 10th 1944..
Well it was not engaged in Sept 1939, why?




Treason? You certainly are an excitable fellow.
Please quote the promises in the gaurantee given to Poland where a specific act of agression is made in relation to a ground offensive into Germany.
Be my guest:

His Majesty's Government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power


Similar clause was given by the French,needless to say both countries performed well below their capacity.

I think you are confusing France and The UK with the United States.
Nope, France had mobilised over 700.000 men with 500.000 in the Saar region with more tanks then Germans had machineguns in the West (for every german MG in the West 2.3 French tanks were available).

Yet the French contented themselves with occupying several villages, UK did not send a single tank battalion to France or Poland months prior.

Thats betrayal.
 
Well it was not engaged in Sept 1939, why?

Because real life decisions are not taken as fast as in computer gaming?

Be my guest:

His Majesty's Government would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Polish Government all support in their power

Similar clause was given by the French,needless to say both countries performed well below their capacity.

They stood by their promise to declare war on Germany. A very important decision that had severe repercusions and caused great death and
destruction to both France and the UK.
Please be so kind as to give details of the SPECIFIC military actions promised as per my original request. What you BELIEVE was promised does not count.
 
Because real life decisions are not taken as fast as in computer gaming?
Poland was alerting them months in advance, as early as December 1938, Poles were giving UK and France truckloads of data that all pointed to war being inevitable, if the West did not prepare for such a war its through obvious lack of intention to honor any pact made with Poland.
They stood by their promise to declare war on Germany. A very important decision that had severe repercusions and caused great death and
destruction to both France and the UK.
Please be so kind as to give details of the SPECIFIC military actions promised as per my original request. What you BELIEVE was promised does not count.

The phrase "any and all" is specific enough, UK and France promised to engange with all available forces immidiately.

Word for word, they did not engage with anything but token actions.
 
Poland was alerting them months in advance, as early as December 1938, Poles were giving UK and France truckloads of data that all pointed to war being inevitable, if the West did not prepare for such a war its through obvious lack of intention to honor any pact made with Poland.

Germany signaled well in advance her intentions in The East.
Why did Stalin not attack Germany in the summer of 1941?
Japan signaled well in advance her intentions in the Pacific.
Why did the USA not invade Japan in December 1941?

The phrase "any and all" is specific enough, UK and France promised to engange with all available forces immidiately.

Word for word, they did not engage with anything but token actions.

I still can not see what SPECIFIC actions were promised. Please do a more thorough Google before you get back to me.
 
Poland was alerting them months in advance, as early as December 1938, Poles were giving UK and France truckloads of data that all pointed to war being inevitable, if the West did not prepare for such a war its through obvious lack of intention to honor any pact made with Poland.

Let us recap.
Pledge given in April 1939.
Military Assistance pact on August 1939
War declared in September 1939..
So within a space of 6 months Britain and France entered the most destructive event in the 20th Century, one that effectively bankrupted them, because they had 'no honour'?
 
I think that the problem is the Polish expectations and the exaggerated capabilities of the French and British.
The French mobilization was not complete until early October and In Britain only 1 in 40 men were mobilized (compared to 1 in 10 in France).

Also the French army was superior to the German in numbers only. It lacked the offensive doctrines, mobilization schemes, and offensive spirit necessary to attack Germany.

The presumption that "something could have been done but wasn't" overlooks the basic fact that France and Britain was ill-equipped to fight Germany even with the majority of German forces engaged in the east

In the Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland.-London, August 25, 1939. ARTICLE I.it says:

Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power”.

That’s what the British had promised.
I would call it a “betrayal of necessity”.
 
Then why enter a pact if you're not ready? Why delay polish mobilisation if you're not ready?

Last i checked entering a pact and laying down specific promises means you're ready to fulfill them, not only that but the French lied to Poland outright claiming they're performing an all out assault.
 
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