17 september 1939 - Page 5




 
--
 
May 22nd, 2010  
LeEnfield
 
 
Panzercraker......We did not have the men or materials to go Poland, we did not even have enough to help France. We had not planned for war but were prepared to fight to honour our obligations. Now the US set the League of Nations yet when it came to the crunch washed there hands of it
May 22nd, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
Panzercraker......We did not have the men or materials to go Poland, we did not even have enough to help France.
Then why enter an alliance with very specific promises? Why make Poland delay its mobilisation? Why not use your fleet against Germans?

I know UK didnt have the land forces but it does not explain its conduct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
We had not planned for war but were prepared to fight to honour our obligations.
UK did not honor a single obligation of the alliance, it entered an alliance that it was completely unready to honor and then simply decided to sit it out.

Also the resources is not completely true, the fleet didnt move at all, the trade was not blocked etc.
May 22nd, 2010  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
Then why enter an alliance with very specific promises? Why make Poland delay its mobilisation? Why not use your fleet against Germans?

I know UK didnt have the land forces but it does not explain its conduct.

UK did not honor a single obligation of the alliance, it entered an alliance that it was completely unready to honor and then simply decided to sit it out.

Also the resources is not completely true, the fleet didnt move at all, the trade was not blocked etc.
I don't think there were any specific promises
The fleet was used against the Germans:the blockade using the fleet to attack Berlin would not be utile
--
May 22nd, 2010  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shmack
No, i don't call polish-german war a 'grand war'. I'm just telling that by the time Hitler invaded Poland it was clear that Hitler was preparing for a war with at least France, Britain and Russia.

True, Wermacht attacked Poland with 1.2 million ground forces, 200 thousand air force, and 50 thousand navy. But that was approx. 1/3 of all their Army which was 3,214 thousand people by September, 1939.

As of May 1940, the Germans had fewer men on German-French border that France and its allies, but all in all they had 4 million army by that time. Also, i woudln't agree that qualitatively their aircraft were no better, for example Bf.109 or Junkers 87 bomber.
If there was no plan for a war with Britain,France and Russia,I doubt you could say that Hitler was preparing
The Germans had an army of 4 million,and the French.....5.5 million
About the aircraft :the allies having no Stuka,a comparison is no possible.
The Bf.109:was he superior to the Spitfire,the Dewoitine,... in speed,armament,range ?
May 22nd, 2010  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
What war in the West? The 1940 war was a minor skirmish compared to the 1939 invasion of Poland.

Poles engaged Germans in several particulary bloody battles such as Battle of Bzura where 250.000 Poles fought 400.000 Germans for two weeks, two battles of Tomaszów Lubelski where first 70.000 Poles fought against 140.000 Germans and in the second 130.000 Poles fought against 280.000 Germans.

Both battles lasted over 10 days.

Polish war was outside of SU and Ardennes offensive the face of some of the largest most bitterly contested battles of WW2 without comparison to the joke of a war in France or minor engagements in Italy and Africa.

Warsaw itself was being assaulted by over a quarter milion men and defended by over a hundred thousand for a month making it the largest urban engagement outside Russia.

Just because the West attempts to marginalize Polish efforts to hide the fact that Poland was sold, betrayed and was outside of Russian and USA the only country on the allied side that posed some sort of a military threat to Germany, doesnt mean it didnt.

Poles with their cavalry were able to stop and roll back the entire german front and engage Germans in a two week long battle that was larger than any outside Kursk while UK and France did what? No wonder you dont learn about Poland, that month long campaign puts combined western efforts to shame.

Given that UK declared war and did absolutely nothing saying Brits had their hands full is a bit of a joke no? Not a single soldier landed in Poland, no naval blockade happened, a token bombing run here and there, some leafleats and thats about it.

French were even better, having 200.000 unarmed militias against them they moved a few miles into Germany and stopped, then UK and France met at Abbeville and decided Poland is lost and helping it is pointless.

Then Poland launched a massive two week offensive at Bzura which broke the back of multiple German units and engaged Germany in the second or third largest battle in WW2 but the allies have decided.

UK and France did absolutely nothing, saying you had your hands full when your army didnt shoot a bullet and your govt sat their wasting their only chance to quickly end WW2 while Germans were destroying the only truly capable army (Poles) the Western allies had at their disposal.

Wechrmatch attacked Poland with 1.7 milion men, 2800 tanks, 1012 armored cars and that constituted 90% of combat capable units, 100% first line units, fast divisions, second line units, 100% tanks and armored cars.

The western border was defended by 150.000 Landwehr units and approx 50.000 second line infantry units with a small portion of combat aircraft, less than 1/10th artillery complement, no tanks or armored cars.

In other words everything that went boom was fighting in Poland, approximately 600.000 personnel that you refer to were non-combatant, police and militia units in the Reich or members of other arms.
That the German western border was practically undefended is only a myth .
May 22nd, 2010  
LeEnfield
 
 
Tell me what were the strengths of the British Army when they declared war after Germany had invaded Poland. Okay they were not strong enough to send troops to Poland but at least they did some thing to try and stop it regardless to cost to them selfs. The RAF Bombers at that time were mainly the Bombay and Whitely bombers which were two engined with a fixed undercarriage and a top speed of around 150 mph. There were a few Blenheim bombers which were also two engine and were out of date when war was declared and they got shot down quite easily by the Germans. The main battle tank was the Matilda Mk 1 with a top speed of about 10 mph and it only had machine guns in the tank to fight with.
Once Hitler came to power they had a slogan "Guns Before Butter" and set about rearming at an alarming rate. Now the only way we could get troops to Poland was by sea and any convoy of transport ships would have been a sitting target for the German Air force. What we had to do was to fight for time while we played at catch up with the German war machine. Before saying that Britain should have done more you should be looking at the countries that nothing at all.
May 23rd, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
I don't think there were any specific promises
The fleet was used against the Germans:the blockade using the fleet to attack Berlin would not be utile
Specific promises:

France engages Germany with all capable forces within 2 weeks of the beginning of hostilities.

UK engeges all naval and aerial assets in full support of Poland.


Reality - France moved about 9 miles into Germany and stopped, UK blockaded Germany and bombed three german bases, both countries betrayed Poland breaking the treaty after a token gesture that did not amount to honoring the treaty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
That the German western border was practically undefended is only a myth .
Because you say so? Iljadws version of history no.1? Facts based on german archives, western border was defended by 200.000 reservists with enough heavy equipment to fully arm two infantry divisions, western border was defencless and french could easily roll over them.

For example french army outnumbered Germans 40 to 1 in tanks and armored cars.
May 23rd, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
Tell me what were the strengths of the British Army when they declared war after Germany had invaded Poland.
Over 100.000 highly trained fully mechanized troops with a strong armored element.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
Okay they were not strong enough to send troops to Poland
Why? Poles held much of the coast for the entire length of the war and the fact is landing troops could change the outcome of the war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
but at least they did some thing to try and stop it regardless to cost to them selfs.
Yes at the time when a quarter milion polish soldiers were advancing on nearly half a million Germans about 40 british bombers dropped some bombs on german naval bases.

When polish offensive broke down after the initial succesfull week and the casualities were reaching 100.000 captured the Brits lost an aicraft carrier.

Also both Polish and British airforce started their work on the first day of the war, Poles strafed a german motorised brigade obliterating it while Brits dropped leafleats on the Ruhr.

In other words UK did absolutely nothing and its only significant loss is an aircraft carrier lost due to bad luck rather than any bitter fighting on the british part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
Before saying that Britain should have done more you should be looking at the countries that nothing at all.
I'm not on a moral high horse here, its purely strategic thinking, it was no secret that the french army was a joke, the expeditionary corpse should have been placed in Poland months before september instead of France.

French lacked proper command chain, morale, initiative and downright guts, Poles lacked tanks.
May 23rd, 2010  
MontyB
 
 
Umm how were the BEF supposed to get to Poland considering the amount of German territory they would have to have sailed past to get to Poland?
May 23rd, 2010  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
Specific promises:

France engages Germany with all capable forces within 2 weeks of the beginning of hostilities.

UK engeges all naval and aerial assets in full support of Poland.


Reality - France moved about 9 miles into Germany and stopped, UK blockaded Germany and bombed three german bases, both countries betrayed Poland breaking the treaty after a token gesture that did not amount to honoring the treaty.

Because you say so? Iljadws version of history no.1? Facts based on german archives, western border was defended by 200.000 reservists with enough heavy equipment to fully arm two infantry divisions, western border was defencless and french could easily roll over them.

For example french army outnumbered Germans 40 to 1 in tanks and armored cars.
because:
German strength in the west:
6 september (Saar offensive):12 divisions
12 september:14-16
20 september :18-20
because :Source :Axis History Forum :"What happend in 1939 "