17 september 1939 - Page 12




 
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June 4th, 2010  
fuser
 
 
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The basic question is :what were they doing on Polish territory with a big army (btw:the Poles were FIGHTING against the Red army),maybe invading Poland ? Or,maybe they were only tourists ?
You are not good at reading.... are you?? Speaking of parroting....Read again and try to counter any point that I have made.......
Yeah and sure I am to take your words and not the governments, the people who were closely watching those events and the official statements of those times

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I like it,when one is making an own-goal :your first source is giving a map with the following text :the map shows the line of spheres of influence :thus,a part of Poland was a sphere of influence of the SU (YOUR source ):how could that be possible ? maybe because that part of Poland was occupied by the SU?
So after all you thought that you found out one mistake in entire post (you left numerous points untouched which speaks highly itself that you are believing what you want to and not facts.....) but then my friend you have simply no idea that there is a big difference between sphere of influence and occupation

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if Poland was not invaded by the SU,from where did come all those Polish prisonners murdered at Katyn,by order of Stalin ?Even Putin has admitted that they were murdered by the GPU ?
Yeah, and I am once again sure you don't know nothing about it other than what popular media says... First research a little bit.... And putin is no spokesperson of USSR.........

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Btw:that part of Poland,with a lot of Soviet soldiers and GPU scum,was annexed by the SU and thiswas only possible ? maybe that part of Poland was invaded by the SU ?
Another example of your parroting "USSR is bad USSR is bad", why don't you try to counter any of my point rather than your usual parroting..Everything has already been answered
June 4th, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
Fuser how do you call attacking a country with an army if not an invasion? Yeah by all accounts USSR did invade Poland, Poland did not declare war as to not complicate its own position with the West but de facto it got invaded and fought Russia as its invader.
June 4th, 2010  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuser
Yeah sure anything that west says is true and if you dare to say against it its propaganda... It would have been better if you have tried to deal in points or had countered mine rather than gibberish....
Speaking of propaganda first go and find out how many nazi officials worked for USA/UK including those who were working on campaigns like anti soviet propaganda since hitler and of course their work continued after hitler too...
The basic fact is that
The USSR did not invade Poland – and everybody knew it at the time

It was only during cold war that this lie was fabricated...
I wonder people who are so fond of commenting on molotov ribbentrop pact even bother to read it and the so called secret protocol or even the news articles of those times....
Here is little education :
http://chss.montclair.edu/english/fu...9/m-rpact.html
http://chss.montclair.edu/english/fu...partition.html

Now, let's interpret some of the events of that time which clearly suggest that USSR was not an aggressor against poland

1. The Polish government did not declare war on USSR. But it did declare war on Germany..


2. The Polish Supreme Commander Rydz-Smigly ordered Polish soldiers not to fight the Soviets, though he ordered Polish forces to continue to fight the Germans.http://chss.montclair.edu/english/fu...ont_fight.html


3. Rumania had a military treaty with Poland aimed against the USSR. Rumania did not declare war on the USSR.

4. France did not declare war on the USSR, though it had a mutual defense treaty with Poland.http://chss.montclair.edu/english/fu...9/m-rpact.html


5. England never demanded that the USSR withdraw its troops from Western Belorussia and Western Ukraine, the parts of the former Polish state occupied by the Red Army after September 17, 1939.
On the contrary, British government concluded that these territories should not be a part of a future Polish state. Even the Polish government in exile agreed.http://chss.montclair.edu/english/fu...39_102739.html


6. The League of Nations did not determine the USSR had invaded a member state.No country took any sanctions against the USSR. No country broke diplomatic relations with the USSR over this action.
However, when the USSR attacked Finland in 1939 the League did vote to expel the USSR, and several countries broke diplomatic relations with it

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1939/391214a.html

7. All countries accepted the USSR’s declaration of neutrality.http://chss.montclair.edu/english/fu...eutrality.html



There's big difference between being anti and fanatically anti to something...
1)has already been answered
2)what the Polish commander ordered is irrelevant,what is relevant is the the Polish army was resisting the Russians.
3)=rubbish,the treaty of Rumania and Poland was not aimed against the SU,it was to defend themselves against the SU.
That Rumania did not help Poland :maybe because it was scared of the SU ?
4)France would be stupid to declare war and on Germany and on the SU.
5) Britain had nothing to demand :it was to feeble.
It is rubbish that the Polish government in exile admitted that the Soviet occupation of aestern Poland was legal.
6) the league of nations was already moribund and has always been a farce .
7)most countries did not care about the Russian invasion;neutrality does not mean one is impartial,it only means that one is legally not at war ,but the SU was taking sides f course,you never heard of the Soviet deliveries of food and raw materials to Germany ?Probably you want to deny it ?
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June 4th, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
To explain the romanian situation, Polish-Romanian alliance had sections that required them to be activated by either side, Poland chose not to activate the military support section since it would be useless.

Untill 17th Sept Poles were counting on French promises of aid (that never came) and after 17th drawing Romania into the war was absolutely pointless.

@Fuser.

Are you Russian perchance? This level of quasi-historical newspeak is out of place in XXI century you know, Russia invaded Poland, it murdered Poles and occupied its lands, later on it claimed quite a few ancient polish provinces.

Polish goverment by the way maintained the illegality and pointed out massive atrocities commited by Russia on Poles all the way till communism got toppled so thats a lie by the way.
June 4th, 2010  
fuser
 
 
Quote:
)what the Polish commander ordered is irrelevant,what is relevant is the the Polish army was resisting the Russians.
.. What polish commander says is irrelevant and what you say is relevant.......Now, please don't get absurd.........

Polish army didn't fought in an organized way, the fights were no more than skirmish... They fought because of the misplaced sense of nationality....
Any way here is another view of polish people regarding red army


Yes, they are welcoming them.. Get the sign translated if you can......

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rubbish,the treaty of Rumania and Poland was not aimed against the SU,it was to defend themselves against the SU.
Please man read carefully, when did I said the treaty was aimed against SU... It was a mutual defense treaty and romanian government didn't took soviet action as an act of aggression......

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That Rumania did not help Poland :maybe because it was scared of the SU ?
As you said may be... Unlike you I don't go by speculations but facts... Can you back up your statement... Is there any declassified or even official document suggesting that romanian government didn't act because of fear.. Don't speculate anything if you are for serious debate... Try to back up your claims or whatever you say is just garbage meaning nothing..

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France would be stupid to declare war and on Germany and on the SU.
Another speculation... Kindly back up your claim....It could have exerted diplomatic pressure anyway....

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Britain had nothing to demand :it was to feeble.
Now do you even know "What are you saying"... So, I shouldn't give a ear to what ever any government at that time says or does but I should listen to you...

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It is rubbish that the Polish government in exile admitted that the Soviet occupation of aestern Poland was legal.
If you are saying that its not true then You don't know History... or why don't you give some sources concluding that it was not so...
Or if you are commenting on polish government's judgment, you got some serious problem... Every authority was dumb at that time and you are the all knowing intelligent one

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the league of nations was already moribund and has always been a farce
Another proof that you don't care to read carefully..... So, tell me why it acted so ferociously when SU invaded finland?? Or when it suits to you its farce and when it doesn't suits you its not.......

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most countries did not care about the Russian invasion
So, you were phoned or received letters from those countries.... Back up your claims.............

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neutrality does not mean one is impartial,it only means that one is legally not at war
What does this statement have to convey anyway.....

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but the SU was taking sides
Whose side?? You are starting it again, read previous posts....

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f course,you never heard of the Soviet deliveries of food and raw materials to Germany ?Probably you want to deny it ?
Another one of your stupid speculations.. And another proof that you don't know anything about it other that the usual parroting........
June 4th, 2010  
fuser
 
 
Quote:
Fuser how do you call attacking a country with an army if not an invasion? Yeah by all accounts USSR did invade Poland, Poland did not declare war as to not complicate its own position with the West but de facto it got invaded and fought Russia as its invader.
You need to read my previous post carefully....

Yes it fought a war with SU total 3000 dead.....Now compare it to the causalities it suffered while fighting germans......As I already said they were nothing more than skirmishes....


Every event of that period suggests that SU was not an aggressor but as here in India we have a proverb which says "when you speak a lie 1000 times it becomes true after some course of time."
This is what happened a lie was forged during cold war..........
June 4th, 2010  
lljadw
 
I will not waste my time with a Stalinist who said that the Polish fought against the Russians from a misplaced sense of nationality and who is claiming that the Poles were very happy when the Red army was invading their country.
June 4th, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuser
.. What polish commander says is irrelevant and what you say is relevant.......Now, please don't get absurd.........
Sorry to intercede on your bullcrap, Rydz Śmigły gave a directive "avoid combat with the Red Army if possible".

Thats it, he did not order his troops not to fight and the reason for this order was to preserve the remnant of the army, Red Army invaded into completely unprotected Polish rear which negated any chance of effective resistance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuser
Polish army didn't fought in an organized way, the fights were no more than skirmish... They fought because of the misplaced sense of nationality....
Every major city had to be stormed by the Red Army, there were over a hundred major engagements between WP (Wojsko Polskie) and the Red Army, that Polish Army did not mount mamooth offensives 100.000 or 200.000 men strong was because its forces have been completely tied with the Germans or in mid-mobilisation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuser
Any way here is another view of polish people regarding red army


Yes, they are welcoming them.. Get the sign translated if you can......
There's no picture sorry but i bet since you're hell bent on spreading totalitarian communist propaganda that the picture shows Ukrainian or Jewish citizens, both groups were ardent communist symphatizers they have not been Poles however, just Polish citizens, they also constituted minority and were not a governing class in Polish Commonwealth (Poles were).

Either way repost the picture so we can tell more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuser
As you said may be... Unlike you I don't go by speculations but facts... Can you back up your statement... Is there any declassified or even official document suggesting that romanian government didn't act because of fear.. Don't speculate anything if you are for serious debate... Try to back up your claims or whatever you say is just garbage meaning nothing..
Fuser you're lying and manipulating the facts, its some sort of provocation but still needs to be straightened up for the benefit of a casual reader.

The Romanian goverment did not act because Poles specifically stated that they only require Constanta to be open and Romania to help with eventuall evacuation, Poland outright sent a note that it requests Romania to stay out of the war since its neutrality would ensure flow of goods from UK via Constanta.

The first 12 Hurricanes along with 150 37mm Bofors were on the way for example.

Anyway i thought this was a serious forum where neonazis and communists are not allowed? Or does freedom of speecjh extend that far?
June 4th, 2010  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuser

Yes it fought a war with SU total 3000 dead.....Now compare it to the causalities it suffered while fighting germans......As I already said they were nothing more than skirmishes....
See now thats a problem with Soviet records, in 1920 after crushing Russia Poland had in its POW camps over 150.000 Russians yet Russia claimed only 20.000 Russians got captured.

In 1939 SU claimed it lost 3000 dead yet in the storming of Grodno alone 900 Russians were killed and this was neither the biggest nor longest of the battles you claim were just "skirmishes".

Of course since Russians were overruning Polish mobilisation areas and rear echelons their losses would be low but real losses are almost ceirtanly several times higher then those reported.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fuser

Every event of that period suggests that SU was not an aggressor but as here in India we have a proverb which says "when you speak a lie 1000 times it becomes true after some course of time."
This is what happened a lie was forged during cold war..........
OK then simple question, did Russian troops cross the border into Poland and fight/murder Poles or not? If so then what purpose would Poland, Germany, Lithuania, Ukraine and even Russian veterans have in lying claiming Russia did invade?
June 4th, 2010  
lljadw
 
the logic of Fusers thinking(if one can call this thinking )is
Japan did not invade China in 1937 ,because there was no declaration of war by China
India did not invade Goa,because Portugal did not declare war
India did not invade Sikkim,because Sikkim did not declare war
India did not invade East Pakistan,because no declaration of war by Pakistan
Inonesia did not invade Timor,because no declaration of war by Portugal