Redneck, I agree with what you said about Clinton in Somalia, except that the order not to use Spectre's and Bradly's really had nothing to do with Clinton, but more his staff. Clintons mistake was pulling out after leaving our boys dead there, which erased any meaning of the mission. What bothers me the most is how some people always say he made the economy so strong, but yet they fail to see that 1)He sold military secrets to China (Read Year of the Rat for more info, and 2) Failed to monitor groups terrorists groups properly.

Im glad this forum can put the stereotypes of all people aside, I definetly know i was anxiouse about travling through Europe in the wake of what I thought was almost complete anti-American sentiment, but found the people of both Austria and Switzerland very warm and receptive.

It's good the see that you're back Redneck.

(almost) All opinions are allowed in this forum.
I do not know what's right or wrong, I just base my opinons on what I hear and read here in Europe.
And as I said, it's hard to find any neutral news sources.
Most of them are either for or against USA in general...
But I try to watch both and trying to find the average between them...
That works in most cases...

And when it comes to proof, I think the world needs some pretty hard evidence before they belive that Iraq has/had WMD's...
Just because of the differences between the different news sources...
One says it was traces of chemicals, but another one claims that it may have been some traces of harmless chemicals from rocket fuel (or something like that)..
Or the labs were used for producing harmless agricultural chemicals, or they were used to produce chemical weapons....
The normal person in the street doesn't know who to trust anymore, and I'm afraid that traces of chemicals, some sterilized remote labs, or wheel tracks into the Bekaa Valley is not enough to convince much of the population (at least here in Europe) that Iraq did have WMD's....

Hard evidence is needed..
Perhaps some al-Samoud missiles with a large yellow and black nuclear sign on them is the only thing that helps, but I'm afraid that too can be manipulated into something harmless.

I do only trust first hand experiences from people I know in situations like this.
Media is making too much of a circus out of it!
Circus is funny and entertaining, but I do not want the clowns there to tell me about the political situation in the world.........

Perhaps some al-Samoud missiles with a large yellow and black nuclear sign on them is the only thing that helps, but I'm afraid that too can be manipulated into something harmless.

Hear, hear! haha that's the way I feel about it Redleg, mushroom clouds and green fog over Iraq are probably the only two things that will convince most people, and even then someone is going to swear up and down that we did it ourselves.

except that the order not to use Spectre's and Bradly's really had nothing to do with Clinton, but more his staff.

But you're forgetting that it was Clinton's policies that led to those rules of engagement. However you are entirely right in that after that first error, he compounded it by pulling out before we had accomplished anything.
As a sidenote, Mohammed Farah Aidid's son was a U.S. Marine at the time and was sent to Somalia with the United States forces.

Yes I know, I own the History channel true story, and was surprised to find his son once a marine, then return to take over the clan.

spilt about iraq one hand its hard to sit by and watch thousands of people die on the other hand i think would should have finished what we started with osama now we got 2 mad men on the loose that are gathering support and sympathy

Well I don't know if it was about oil or not. I wish it weren't because oil is going to become a useless source of energy in a few decades. Just to clarify one thing there has been planty opf evidence of WMDs the problem is they just can't find stupid things. Supposedly now too they have a definite link between bin Laden and financial backing from Saddam for 9/11 if that makes any difference to anyone. Just read the headline maybe a week or two ago. If anyone really wants the article say so and I'll try to dig it up.

I do feel it was right to remove saddam from power.but i feel one of the main reaseons why bush wanted to invade iraq in the first place was just a revenge tactic because saddam had threatened to kill daddy bush in the past. but one thing redneck, no weapons of mass destruction may have been found but there is evidence that saddam has used them in the past. As for me it is a split decision, and i also agree with you, whenever i see that more men were killed i tend to get upset also. but you know there really is nothing any of us can really do about it because we are not commander in chief.

Fighting tirany and injustice is always worth it. I thank our American friends for taking care of saddam and his assistance. I thank the American Soldiers, Airmen, Marines, Sailors who fought and died for freedom in a place some of them couldent recognise on a map.

Hear hear!
Nicely put, sherman.

Just to clarify, Bush never declared the war over ... just the end to major combat.