Originally Posted by Whispering Death

I have no clue why our aircraft are 2 or 3 generations more advanced than our adversaries yet our infantry who do all the dying are still armed with outdated 50 year old relics.

The AR15 is a relic the M16A4 is modded, lees jaming, chrome inside, its just better that most.

What I'm saying is the Nimitz class carriers are miles better than anything else out there. The F-22 Raptor is generations beyond anything else out there. Our professional infantryman is stuck with a weapon on the exact same level as any Iraqi civilian can get for free. That is inexcusable that our generals and politicians would handicap our infantrymen in such a way.

I have no clue why our aircraft are 2 or 3 generations more advanced than our adversaries yet our infantry who do all the dying are still armed with outdated 50 year old relics.

Hmmm, but aren't those people killing your infantry using equally old rifles? Would it not come down to a skill based issue then? I don't think you can possibly blame the M16 for the deaths in Iraq.

We still use the Browning HP as our side arm. It's reliable and BATTLE PROVEN, and we used the SLR L1A1 (FN FAL) till a few years ago (got the Steyr AUG now)... Neither of these "old" firearms have been detremental to our soldiers, and have been used very effectivly in past campaigns. Because if your soldiers can shoot well, and know how to use the weapon, then they are as good or better than a soldier with the most new-fangled assault rifle. So after all this rant I'm trying to say, the rifle has nothing to do with the deaths of your soldiers.

What I'm saying is the Nimitz class carriers are miles better than anything else out there. The F-22 Raptor is generations beyond anything else out there. Our professional infantryman is stuck with a weapon on the exact same level as any Iraqi civilian can get for free. That is inexcusable that our generals and politicians would handicap our infantrymen in such a way.

Do you honestly think that a rifle upgrade would be a magical cure, get some perspective.

AussieNick is right a new whiz bang rifle with gadgets and optics is no magical cure. The Rifle no matter what type is only as good as the Rifleman and the design.

The M16 series is not a bad weapon it has served well. And the M4 is just a retooled and modified member of that family.

First off there is no magic on the battlefield, that's why they call it military science. The M-16 was a good rifel in its time, but it was time for a replacement in the 90s and now, finally, it is looking like the military will take the step in 2005.

The whole point is that the armed forces should take every step to outclass an oponent so the least number of our guys have to die. Making the playing field even is wrong wrong wrong. If I get mugged by a guy with a knife I'm going to shoot him, I don't want to be on an even playing field with that guy, I want to live! The U.S. miltiary has the funds. We can create all these other phenomenal pieces of technology for all the supporting forces yet when it comes to the men that do all the dying on the field we don't give them the same treatment. That is not a good doctorine and the U.S. infantry deserves to get the upgrades all the other forces have been bennifiting from for the past 60 years.

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

First off there is no magic on the battlefield, that's why they call it military science. The M-16 was a good rifel in its time, but it was time for a replacement in the 90s and now, finally, it is looking like the military will take the step in 2005.

The whole point is that the armed forces should take every step to outclass an oponent so the least number of our guys have to die. Making the playing field even is wrong wrong wrong. If I get mugged by a guy with a knife I'm going to shoot him, I don't want to be on an even playing field with that guy, I want to live! The U.S. miltiary has the funds. We can create all these other phenomenal pieces of technology for all the supporting forces yet when it comes to the men that do all the dying on the field we don't give them the same treatment. That is not a good doctorine and the U.S. infantry deserves to get the upgrades all the other forces have been bennifiting from for the past 60 years.

The Arny ha Interseptor, and the M1A2 and now the T.H.E.L.A.

Whats your point? The Army is fielding the XM8 now the M8 LAR.

The M16 is a aesome weapon it is still a graet gun and will be for 20 more years thats why Canada copyed it and called it the C7.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

The whole point is that the armed forces should take every step to outclass an oponent so the least number of our guys have to die. Making the playing field even is wrong wrong wrong. If I get mugged by a guy with a knife I'm going to shoot him, I don't want to be on an even playing field with that guy, I want to live! The U.S. miltiary has the funds. We can create all these other phenomenal pieces of technology for all the supporting forces yet when it comes to the men that do all the dying on the field we don't give them the same treatment. That is not a good doctorine and the U.S. infantry deserves to get the upgrades all the other forces have been bennifiting from for the past 60 years.

There comes to point at which you really have to look at the simple facts of the Infantreers job. They do not have the luxery of being removed from conflict as a carrier would. Nor do they hav the luxery of space and weight given to a MBT. Furthermore, they cannot afford to have to deal with complex systems in the heat of the battle. The M-16 is a proven, light, dependable system. Does it jam? Yes. Can you easily fix that jam? Yes. We have not quite arrived at a point in time where this new technology is light enough and durable enough to be efficient and effective at the level on the intrantry.

Adam - That is my point exactly, they should be fielding the XM8->M8 because we are long overdue for a new rifel.

Button - Is that what is holding up the OICW? I haven't heard anything about it since the XM8 started making waves, All I know is that our infantry can't wait till' 2012 for some pie in the sky weapon.

as long as it goes bang and hits what you want it to hit... It's good enough

one way is giving every infantry a saw