World's dumbest conflict... -


Read more about Just an aside - anyone remember the movie Tarus Bulba starring Yul Brenner? I never really studied Cossak history except to know they had a lot of conflict with the Russi

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May 13th, 2011   #1
Prapor
 
 

World's dumbest conflict... info


Quote:
Ethnic conflict involving Cossacks in Sverdlovsk oblast (Ural mountain region)

Two houses burnt to the ground in half-Cossack half-Russian village, Sulyom. First one belonged to Cossack Ataman Dmitry Sitnikov, other to ethnic Russian head of... local administration, Ivan Kazakov.

There are different versions of events, but this is the basic account. In 2007, two Ural Cossack clans, the Sitnikovs and their 3 children, and the Bobenkovs, and their 7, settled in the village. They surrounded their new 'khutor' with a high wall, and built two houses next to each other, and set to live their lives there breeding live stock, raising their young ones, and following the word of God as good, Christian Cossacks do. They avoided any sort of friendly contact with the local population, considering them 'drunken, Godless scum'.

The first conflict happened when a local boy, aged 13, tried to romance the Bobenkovs' 12 year old daughter, Alena. The head of that family, also named Dmitry, first chased away the young man, telling him his daughter is a Cossack girl and is not for the likes of him, and then threatened his father and elder brother with a rifle when they confronted him at the gate to the Cossack compound.

The next incident was when the Cossack demanded the locals shut down a beer kiosk that was too near their khutor for them. After Sitnikov and Bobenkov came over to the kiosk to make their demand, there was a scuffle between them and several locals, including Kazakov and his son. The fight ended badly for the locals. Dmitry Sitnikov, a Specnaz veteran, and kickboxing champion broke younger Kazakov's jaw, while Bobenkov stabbed two other men with a knife he apparently had kidden in his pocket. They also smashed much of the kiosk's produce.

It was after that fight that someone managed to climb over their fence and set fire to Ataman Sitnikov's family home. His wife managed to get teh children out in time, but they lost much posessions in the fire.

Not long after, Kazakov's house was burnt down similarly, and he was injured trying to battle the flames.

Local police head, Major Said Abitov, said he is at a loss what to do: "I do not want to take sides here. Alienating the locals is bad. But so is crossing with the Cossacks..."

Ataman Sitnikov, meanwhile, is already rebuilding his home. His wife and children stay with the Babenkovs for now. Sitnikov says the settlement will only grow with time, as several large Cossack families from Volgograd will soon be coming to settle with them.

"We are Cossacks," says Sitnikov, "we fear none, particularly drunken animals. This land is our land. We will take it. If they try to go against us again, they will face the consequences."

Meanwhile, they will build a taller wall around their compound, with barbed wire on top. And both Dmitrys regularly go on armed patrols around the property, along with 16 year old Ilya Babenkov.
http://www.oblgazeta.ru/home.htm?st=...&dt=12.05.2011

Why can't we all just get along...
 
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May 13th, 2011   #2
senojekips
 
 
Not good,

Even if the locals are "Godless Scum", they were there first and I don't feel that it is right for someone to move in among them and upset their way of life, different though it may be. Similarly if the reverse were true.

I have always felt that in cases such as this it is for the "newcomers" to fit in with the locals wherever they are, not the reverse. They don't have to give up their own way of life, but they should accept the way that the previous inhabitants have chosen to live. I am sure that Sverdlovsk oblast is large enough that if they don't like it, they don't have to live alongside each other.


"I am totally responsible for what I write,... however I cannot be held responsible for your complete inability to understand"

 
May 13th, 2011   #3
Prapor
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Not good,

Even if the locals are "Godless Scum", they were there first and I don't feel that it is right for someone to move in among them and upset their way of life, different though it may be. Similarly if the reverse were true.

I have always felt that in cases such as this it is for the "newcomers" to fit in with the locals wherever they are, not the reverse. They don't have to give up their own way of life, but they should accept the way that the previous inhabitants have chosen to live. I am sure that Sverdlovsk oblast is large enough that if they don't like it, they don't have to live alongside each other.
I wish it were that simple...

See, that area, the Urals, it was first settled by Cossacks, hundreds of years ago. Cossacks and Tatars, together (note the village policeman, Said Abitov, that is a Tatar name). Anyway, that is why Sitnikov says, 'this is our land'. Technically, well, it is. Before the Revolution, we, Cossacks, founded the city of Ekaterinburg, which the Commies later renamed Sverdlovsk in honor of a Bolshevik leader. They, Bolsheviks/Communists, ethnically cleansed Cossacks from that area. Killed many, sent others away to Central Asia.

Now people like these are returning there. As far as they are concerned, they are the locals there, not those Russians settled there by the Soviets. They are not taking any land that is not theirs, merely reclaiming that which is rightfully, historically, theirs.

It is not easy to argue against...

Last edited by Prapor; May 13th, 2011 at 18:48..
 
May 13th, 2011   #4
senojekips
 
 
Yes, that does put a different light on the matter. I can understand the view of the Cossacks.

Bloody Governments, they screw everything up and leave the ordinary people to sort out the mess that they made. I view our politicians the same way they make decisions that will affect people's lives long after they are dead and buried.
 
May 13th, 2011   #5
Del Boy
 
True - we old 'uns are already concerned for our grandchildren and great-grandchildren, and trying to unravel such problems on their behalf. Prapor, you have a knack of pin-pointing the problems of the world.

When I was your age, I found myself around 1965 in Warsaw, trying to deal with aggressive business discussions with Polish government departments; at your age no one sits back and sucks their thumbs, especially when the vodka punctuation is the order of the day; they push. Then off we went for few days of buying around Polish factories, accompanied by a veteran of the uprising against the Nazis, who had fought through the gutters and drains, much older than me. Three of us were thrown together all day and then at hotels in the countryside for evenings, eating and GROWN-UP imbibing. To my boss and I it was business - to our translater, business host and guide, it was his future at stake politically, I realised later.

One night he could contain himself no longer, and he appealed to us "What am I going to do with this young man?". We fell out - and then by tradition had to change tables and change what we were drinking before we could carry on.

On our last evening, he and I sat for a drink; ' please', he said, 'we have some tough negotiation ahead - try to say something nice!'
And then he said he was giving me the best advice I would ever get and pushed a folded piece of paper into my coat top pocket. I did not read it until a long time later, years maybe; I still have it tucked into an old note-book.
It was one word - KOMPROMIZE.

Kompromize and peace - worth fighting for!


English by the grace of God.

 
May 13th, 2011   #6
Prapor
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Boy
True - we old 'uns are already concerned for our grandchildren and great-grandchildren, and trying to unravel such problems on their behalf. Prapor, you have a knack of pin-pointing the problems of the world.

When I was your age, I found myself around 1965 in Warsaw, trying to deal with aggressive business discussions with Polish government departments; at your age no one sits back and sucks their thumbs, especially when the vodka punctuation is the order of the day; they push. Then off we went for few days of buying around Polish factories, accompanied by a veteran of the uprising against the Nazis, who had fought through the gutters and drains, much older than me. Three of us were thrown together all day and then at hotels in the countryside for evenings, eating and GROWN-UP imbibing. To my boss and I it was business - to our translater, business host and guide, it was his future at stake politically, I realised later.

One night he could contain himself no longer, and he appealed to us "What am I going to do with this young man?". We fell out - and then by tradition had to change tables and change what we were drinking before we could carry on.

On our last evening, he and I sat for a drink; ' please', he said, 'we have some tough negotiation ahead - try to say something nice!'
And then he said he was giving me the best advice I would ever get and pushed a folded piece of paper into my coat top pocket. I did not read it until a long time later, years maybe; I still have it tucked into an old note-book.
It was one word - KOMPROMIZE.

Kompromize and peace - worth fighting for!
Compromise, or kompromiss as it is called in our language, is something we are not too great at, none of us, Cossack, Russian, or any other ethnic group in this country.

But the local government there, in the Urals, they want us there. They know what we are like: well organized, self-reliant and self-sufficient, hard working, and, most importantly, sober. Cossacks do not drink alcohol or use narcotics. Period. Our faith forbids it and our faith rules our lives

If you look at a Russian village, you see old wooden houses listing to one side, fences falling over to another, dirt, mess, drunks everywhere.

Cossack khutors and stanitsas, very different story. Lets look at one average Cossack family. In our culture, women work in the home, but it is the man who builds and maintains that home, and our men take pride in their work. They want people to look at their home and say, "That man knows how to build good houses!"

Our homes are always neat, clean, well-maintained, no stray weeds everywhere.

Our families are big and strong, and well structured. Everyone prays and eats together
And not some McDonald's crap, but all homemade food, from the farm, that the men bring in, and the women prepare. Children are healthy and well nourished, unlike Russian village youth, but not fat and spoiled, like those in Moscow and other cities.

Where we live, we always produce something. Our households always run farms or breed livestock


We never ask the government for handouts. Never have, never will. In darkest times of our history, our faith has always sustained us.

It may be wrong to consider one's lifestyle above that of others; but in this case, the Cossack way of life is superior. That is why that village policeman does not want to do anything. He wants the Cossacks to stay, he wants them to, as their numbers grow and their settlement expands, to push those drunken Communist-era people with their Lenin's statue in the main square out of the area. Because Cossacks means little or no crime; no problems with drunk people, as I said, we do not drink; our youth are taught to be respectful to elders and polite to all. A copper's paradise
 
May 13th, 2011   #7
Del Boy
 
Nicely put Prapor - an ethic respected widely. From what I had always understood re. Cossacks I am not surprised Kompromise has never been favoured.

But you surprise me with your tee-total practices. Didn't see that one coming, or notice it on your Wiki. lol.

And you state your case without fear or favour I must say. Respect.

Last edited by Del Boy; May 13th, 2011 at 21:22..
 
May 14th, 2011   #8
A Can of Man
 
 
I think we just found the perfect place for 5.56.
We'll dig him an underground bunker for his secret drinking sessions lol.


Stalin... only wealthy Capitalists can like a person like him.

Again, great photos Prapor.. Maybe one day I too will make my own house
 
May 14th, 2011   #9
Prapor
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Can of Man
I think we just found the perfect place for 5.56.
We'll dig him an underground bunker for his secret drinking sessions lol.


Stalin... only wealthy Capitalists can like a person like him.

Again, great photos Prapor.. Maybe one day I too will make my own house
There is nothing like it. In the last two weeks before a Cossack wedding, the groom, his father, brothers if any, and four best friends have to construct a house for the new family. A tradition we borrowed from the Chechens.

By the way, Del Boy, this and much of what I told here is not true for Ukrainian Cossacks. They have never been as disciplined as us, even in the old days, in the 17th century, they had their Zaporozhian Sich, a lawless place, and they regularly made short trips from there to attack Polish and Jews, and to rape, pillage and rob anyone around them. I'm not raising my nose, we were once no different, in those days. But, we changed. Today, we take what's best from our ancestry: order, military-type discipline, organization, chain of command and leadership, family values. Our 'brothers' in Ukraine simply want to be the animals they were then. That is why, in the Crimea, where you have many Cossacks who pledge allegiance to Russia, they refuse to even speak with Ukrainian Cossack leaders. Last Ukrainian hetman (we call ours ataman by the way) who went there, and tried to give our guys orders, they beat him up, tore his uniform off (they felt he is not worthy of calling himself a Cossack, so shouldn't wear our uniform), and put him on the train back to Zaporozhie. In his underwear. Anyway, what you read on Wkipedia, there are some Ukrainian guys on there who want to only write about their side. So they filled the article with their bs That's what you read, my freind.

Last edited by Prapor; May 14th, 2011 at 03:31..
 
May 14th, 2011   #10
Del Boy
 
Prapor

Thanks for the info; I am keen on absorbing such history, best taken in good clear easy to follow bites.

Got the message re the differences and I especially like the underwear punishment dished out for appearing in the wrong place; it should be adopted widely; it could be adjusted to suit the demeanour of the locality and the acused; this man- small portion of beating - large portion of tearing off - last train to San Fernando. Done.

Last edited by Del Boy; May 14th, 2011 at 13:05..
 



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cossack, cossacks, local, locals, sitnikov

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