godofthunder9010:

Before Chinese went to Taiwan and set up governments there, did those "original" people living there have any kind of "governments"?

I bet not, they were too backwards ppl, they didn't have any writting system, nothing, they got only civilized after Chinese came in.

I doubt that pre-Chinese taiwan was of any kind of "country" types.

Like native indians in America, they had no governments nor kingdoms, they were just primitive tribes.

Originally Posted by FlyingFrog

godofthunder9010:

Before Chinese went to Taiwan and set up governments there, did those "original" people living there have any kind of "governments"?

I'd be very surprised if they didn't have a clan or tribal governmental system, but I don't have any in depth information on the matter. If there wasn't at least a chieftan/tribal government, it would be the only exception in human history -- everywhere else, a minimum of that sort of basic govermental system evolved.

I bet not, they were too backwards ppl, they didn't have any writting system, nothing, they got only civilized after Chinese came in.

Incidentally, that is a nearly perfect echo of the excuses for conquering the Celtic Tribes of Europe. It just so happens that the Celts originally had no writing system of their own. Also, even later Celtic "nations" like Scotland, Wales and Ireland were largely disunited, were considered "uncivilized" and "uncultured" by some (most importantly, England pushed that opinion).

I doubt that pre-Chinese taiwan was of any kind of "country" types.

Like native indians in America, they had no governments nor kingdoms, they were just primitive tribes.

Tribal government is a form of government. It may be less sophisticated, but so be it. Clan traditions have survived largely intact in numerous modern cultures, and still has great relevance throughout the world today. (I happen to know that I'm a decendant of the Gunn Clan of Scotland for instance, of the MacAmish sept.)

All of the things you've said are not a legitimate basis for completely disregarding all of Formosa's history. Its not sufficient to clear the slate, so to speak, and only count history from the incursion of the later Ming Dynasty on.

Also, I think someone is going to have to provide a reliable source for them not having their own writing system -- as far as we know they may very well have had one. Might have even had a monarchy. We need more information about the pre-Ming Dynasty Formosa. Otherwise, all we have is unfounded speculation.

wut mr.godofthunder9010 is not right!!!
according to numerous historial documents

China has set up direct administration in Taiwan since Yuan Dynasty, it was called Peng Hu Jie Du SHi!!!!!
is that directly governing???of course it is


and talk about taiwan flag,, it represents the whole china (belongs to nationalist, and they stil think they should have whole china, anyway, it represents whole china, not just taiwan) according to their consititution,
therefore, if they want to be indepedant, they ahve to get a new flag to represent only taiwan!!! and change consititution which means WAR!!!

and i dont think taiwan will be reunited peacefully
due to wut i have seen and heard from their goody president, CHen shui bian and their ex-president Li Deng Hui (i especailly hate this guy)

today, more and more taiwanese are been influenced by wut Chen and Li said and they think they are not chinese anymore, they want to seperate from china, despite the fact that many of these ppl still have investment in china or having a job due to the trade between china and taiwan

reuniting taiwan has been one of the most important promise made by chhinese governemnt for 50 years, the communist government knows that if they let taiwan delcare independance, that will be the day the communist government fall, since they have been saying to reunit taiwan for 50 years

Originally Posted by Asskicker

wut mr.godofthunder9010 is not right!!!
according to numerous historial documents

What historical documents? Remember, as per Forum Rules, you are required to provide your sources, especially when it is about something that is not common knowledge. That part is up to the mods, but the truth of the matter is that I need better clarification on the precise details of the history of Taiwan aka Formosa. I'm having a hard time coming up with a reliable source or even very much information at all.

China has set up direct administration in Taiwan since Yuan Dynasty, it was called Peng Hu Jie Du SHi!!!!!
is that directly governing???of course it is

Considering that the "Yuan Dynasty" was nothing more than a Mongolian occupation of China, what they did or didn't do is pretty irrelevant. Otherwise, we start saying that the Yuan borders are relevant and you could stretch the truth a bit and claim the entire ancient Mongolian Empire as rightfully belonging to China. That would include Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, all of the former Soviet Union, etc. That would be complete nonsense. Unless Mongolian = Chinese, what the "Yuan Dynasty" did or didn't do should not be cited as having any relevance to China today.

and talk about taiwan flag,, it represents the whole china (belongs to nationalist, and they stil think they should have whole china, anyway, it represents whole china, not just taiwan) according to their consititution,
therefore, if they want to be indepedant, they ahve to get a new flag to represent only taiwan!!! and change consititution which means WAR!!!

Well yes, that's the reason its such a mess today. Chaing Kaishek was crazy enough to claim all of China was still under his rule. Much of the world was crazy enough to accept his claim. Today, Taiwan isn't willing to continue with that ridiculous charade. So the question is, what happens next? Independence would at least be an official acknowledgement that the ROC does not, in fact, own all of China. Still, Independence has dire consequences. The alternative? Officially acknowledge that Bejing and the PRC is the true government of China and reunite. Frankly, I think that scares the crap out of them. Why should they trust the tender mercies of the People's Republic of China?

So what do we end up with? Nothing changes and we remain in the same stupid fantasyland of Chaing Kaishek claiming rulership of all of China. Nobody dares move for fear of war.

Originally Posted by godofthunder9010

Also, I think someone is going to have to provide a reliable source for them not having their own writing system -- as far as we know they may very well have had one. Might have even had a monarchy. We need more information about the pre-Ming Dynasty Formosa. Otherwise, all we have is unfounded speculation.

My whole point in this statement is that, because I'm not find good reliable sources of information, ancient Formosa (aka Taiwan) may have been ruled by giant pink bunny rabbits and the people were their slaves. I just don't have enough sources to go on here, so if you can provide some links I would appreciate it.

I happen to love Chinese History, but the history of Taiwan seems to be pretty elusive.

check out Shi Ji, Yuan SHi, if u understood mandarin.....hope so
there is also sort of local wriittings in Taiwan called Di Fang Zhi, which not only recorded the government but also the previous association between mainland and taiwan


anyway, this government adminstration is called Peng Hu Jie Du SHi, remind u again

although Yuan dynasty is ruled by a mogolian king, it is ruled with chinese style and all the mogolian emperors respect it, most of high officials are Hans , if u happen to read Yuan SHi--which is the most precise and accurate history written by the Ming scholars


the taiwan poblem is main the consituttion, if u happen to understand wut i wwas trying to say

Originally Posted by Asskicker

check out Shi Ji, Yuan SHi, if u understood mandarin.....

Therein lies my great dilema here. I don't know Mandarin, or any other Oriental language. As close as I can come -- my younger brother speaks fluent Tagalog (Filipino). I do have a ******* brother-in-law that does happen to speak/read semi-fluent Mandarin, but that's not much help either if I'm doing research. So if its not in English, I'm not going to be able to read it.

the taiwan poblem is main the consituttion, if u happen to understand wut i wwas trying to say

I think I'm following you on that one.

ai....chinese history is hard to learn cuz it is such a big coutnry with 5000 years of history,

the 24 Histories (chinese offical writteen records of all dynasties) are large books with old grammars and hard to understand

chinese scholoars used years to anaylze those history and they really did some research on Taiwan issue.

the problem u face i think is there are too many distorted things in this world, the independists have their own version of taiwan history, i am confused too,
no matter how much i read, i am still 17 years old,
maybe there are some more knowleagable guys here can do more research on it

Yeah, hope you're right about that. In the "True History of Taiwan" link, Formosan seemed to have good access to one side of the story, but he only posted once and never again.

Seems that there should be some English translations of those histories. I'll look around I guess.

he seems to talk a lot about the natives...
but unfortunately only 2% of taiwan ppl are natives today
and if his theory works, U.S should belong to indians

anyway, it shouldn't be doubted that mainland chinese immigrants made up the fundation of Taiwan and a bulk of its population

its current governemnt is from China and still inisits representing whole china in its consitituion