Originally Posted by antimili

i hope you should read my post "Taiwan--an Inalienable Part of China" carefully before you post any comment. Taiwan had always been a part of China until in the ww2 against japanese.

i think i forget to remind you something that "should hawaii and alaska declare independance from the usa. and should texa anounce its independance from usa. should american indian claim their territory back which was rightfully theirs.

Read it. Comes back to the same list of excuses, but its hopeless to pick through and counter them all over again because you're not going to listen to me even if I do.

If you are going to list something from the United States, you're going to need a better item for comparison. Alaska and Hawaii want to be part of the United States by an overwhelming majority, and have unquestionably been better off as part of the United States than they would have been otherwise. The problem with ANY state in the USA declaring independence is that none of them want to. None would have better than 5% of their population even considering such a thing. Its just not a reasonable comparison.

A better comparison would be Puerto Rico. It's a US Territory, so technically part of our nation, yet it's not fully US controlled either. You also have an even 50/50 split over the question of independence, similar to Taiwan. They are an island off the coast of the United States just as Taiwan is an island off the coast of China.

What happens if Puerto Rico declares their independence? Same as happened to the Philipines and Cuba, the United States backs off and lets it happen, offering help if its asked for. Should they choose statehood, the United States welcomes them. Note: No threat of bloody retribution and vengence for "stealing from the United States", etc.

Originally Posted by godofthunder9010

Read it. Comes back to the same list of excuses, but its hopeless to pick through and counter them all over again because you're not going to listen to me even if I do.

If you are going to list something from the United States, you're going to need a better item for comparison. Alaska and Hawaii want to be part of the United States by an overwhelming majority, and have unquestionably been better off as part of the United States than they would have been otherwise. The problem with ANY state in the USA declaring independence is that none of them want to. None would have better than 5% of their population even considering such a thing. Its just not a reasonable comparison.

A better comparison would be Puerto Rico. It's a US Territory, so technically part of our nation, yet it's not fully US controlled either. You also have an even 50/50 split over the question of independence, similar to Taiwan. They are an island off the coast of the United States just as Taiwan is an island off the coast of China.

What happens if Puerto Rico declares their independence? Same as happened to the Philipines and Cuba, the United States backs off and lets it happen, offering help if its asked for. Should they choose statehood, the United States welcomes them. Note: No threat of bloody retribution and vengence for "stealing from the United States", etc.

oh yes? i wanna ask who over thrown the last queen of hawaii.

Hawaiians march for independence

(10-19) 17:04 PDT SAN LEANDRO, Calif. (AP) --

Supporters of Hawaiian independence wearing bright floral shirts marched through town Sunday, shouting "Aloha" and distributing flyers, hoping to gather support for their cause.

The march, consisting of about 20 people, was a smaller rendition of the "Aloha Marches" in Washington, D.C., that attracted thousands of supporters two years ago. Several events are scheduled across the country during the coming year to heighten awareness about the growing Hawaii independence movement.

Kaiopua Fyfe, an organizer who lives on the island of Kauai, said many Hawaiians consider the United States' governance of Hawaii to be an illegal occupation of a country, and would compare it to the British Empire's colonization of India and the current American presence in Iraq.

"They should allow us to participate in our own self-determination," he said of the federal government.

A group of U.S. businessmen and sugar planters forced the abdication of the last Hawaiian queen, Queen Liliuokalani, in 1893. Five years later Hawaii was annexed to the United States as a territory, and in 1959 it became the nation's 50th state.

In recent years, the state has seen a growing push for independence or greater autonomy from Washington, D.C. Advocates of independence say that since American annexation, Hawaiians, like the Native Americans with whom they share close ties, have had little control over their own land.

Much of the controversy has centered on a bill before Congress introduced by Sen. Daniel Akaka, D-Hawaii, that would recognize native Hawaiians as a native population. Supporters of the bill say it builds upon a past apology for the U.S. overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy, while opponents say it would undermine efforts to establish true sovereignty.

Fyfe and other Hawaiians insist that Hawaii has suffered as the U.S. military and land developers have sought to control the land. Pineapple and sugar plantations, long the island's core industries, also have declined as companies have moved to Third World countries with cheaper labor practices.

"Everything we have has to be imported in," said Imaikakoloaenui Nauha, who lives in Modesto but was born and raised in Honolulu. "Hawaii is one of the richest states, yet it's the poorest because of the state that America has left us in."

He said Hawaii, which as an independent country had treaties with 29 countries, 96 consulates, and a trust fund set up for native Hawaiians, was able to support itself long before becoming part of the United States.

"Hawaii can take care of itself," Nauha said.

Alright antimili, keep it on topic.

The independence movement of Hawaii or any other state you can think of has one simple problem -- it lacks popular support within that state. In all cases, an overwhelming majority want to remain a part of the USA. Tiny independence movements spring up from time to time, but they are tiny and are generally ignored by everyone ... (except the Chinese media apparently).

And as Redneck said, its off-topic.

Its a pointless discussion really because nobody can win it. I've approached it with an open mind, but all the ground you've covered antmilli has been gone over repeatedly. The PRC and loyal Chinese make long lists of "historical proof" (some of which is questionable) that Taiwan is irrefutably a part of China. The PRC believes it so strongly that they are willing to kill every living thing on the island before giving up the point.

Taiwan is terrified, and understandably so. This is not the sort of attitude that engenders good feelings on the part of the people of Taiwan. It will destroy any hope of a peaceful reuniting. Some day, China will have to learn that threats and bullying are lousy forms of diplomacy.

yeah, i agree with you some of your point. i know if there's something bad happen in china, it will right be in the front page of newyork time or any other news paper. just because usa view china a strong competitor or maybe even a threat to his interest in east asia. i know it's not right for me to disscuss the internal affair of usa, im sure they are quite capable to solve their own problem. but people here don't like usa to interfere our own problem either by acting as body gard of taiwan.
i just come across a good news about the possible cooperation between china and us on the issue of NK and taiwan in the ny time

Peaceful cooperation is what Asia needs right now.

It is a possibility, but will not happen for quite a while. I have a Taiwanese girlfriend and several Taiwanese friends and most dislike China, some even hate them. It is understandable. Most of my friends say they want to remain independent (or whatever they are now), but don't want to declare it, due to Chinese threats of invasion if they do. However, my Chinese friends believe Taiwan is rightfully theirs, and they should use force.

If China is as benevolent as they claim, why the aversion to independence?

I have some Taiwanese friends, one was born in America though, he belives that Taiwan should be independent. I have some other Taiwanese friends, they just came from Taiwan two years ago... they believe that Taiwan should be united with China. They also say that most people in Taiwan do not support and independence movement.

Another thing that I have heard from multiple people, including Taiwanese. The "assasination" attempt during the elections was a setup, #1 to freeze the votes of the military and #2 to sway voters.

What they want a two goverment China (read Puppet Goverment in Taiwan.)

Are you asking "Why do they want a two government China"? I want to this clarified before I start tapping away.

Also... look at Hong Kong.

The independence movement of Hawaii or any other state you can think of has one simple problem -- it lacks popular support within that state. In all cases, an overwhelming majority want to remain a part of the USA. Tiny independence movements spring up from time to time, but they are tiny and are generally ignored by everyone ...

The fact remains that the Queen was kidnapped, the indians were driven off and pushed towards crappy settlements and California, Texas much of the west was taken from Mexico.

The PRC believes it so strongly that they are willing to kill every living thing on the island before giving up the point.

Cite your sources.

The schpeal about Hawaii, and most any other complaint about the unjust United States comes from its pseudo-imperialist era of 1800-1900 or so. Okay that was bad of America, but so be it. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand for one thing. For another, the fact remains that none of those places mentioned have any SERIOUS independence movement. Just a tiny handful of people.

I don't know why anybody is terribly concerned what Taiwan thinks. China isn't ever going to acknowledge their right to decide to do anything other than be reuinited with China, so what's the point in considering it?

For another, the fact remains that none of those places mentioned have any SERIOUS independence movement. Just a tiny handful of people.

You make it sound like the people wanted their land to be taken. And yes, this was the past. To my knowledge, America has not "taken" any land personally since then, installing governments on the other hand...

I don't know why anybody is terribly concerned what Taiwan thinks. China isn't ever going to acknowledge their right to decide to do anything other than be reuinited with China, so what's the point in considering it?

Of course it matters, if the people of Taiwan don't want to unite, then there will be problems. If the people do want to unite, then it would go much easier. Simple as that, and that was what I was talking about when I was talking about the Taiwanese.

china doesnt need it, they have too many people anyway